Crossover

[clemmtec]

Hi,
I want to build a good hifi speakers that will have clean and very stong bass
and want to know if any one in the Usa can build me a crossover for the
following speakers

woofer.............ciare ndh 15-4s
mid woofer......phl 330
mid range phl.........1660
tweeter............morel st 1358

Thanks

[gooki]

Have you tried:

Madisound Speaker Components | Assisting speaker builders for more than 25 years.

[clemmtec]

Yes I did I was told they do not do FOUR way.
and they do not have the Data to the speakers, when I sent the data
of the Woofer he said that do not do him no good.
thank you.

[Loren42]

Originally Posted by clemmtec

Yes I did I was told they do not do FOUR way.
and they do not have the Data to the speakers, when I sent the data
of the Woofer he said that do not do him no good.
thank you.

They are right. Four-ways are extremely hard to get right for the experienced pro and virtually impossible for the novice.

Even three-ways are not easy and require a lot of effort to get respectable performance.

Your easiest route is a kit from a respected manufacture. If you still want to do this from scratch I would encourage a two-way system to get started.

You could spend years trying to make what you originally proposed work correctly, not to mention all the money.

To spin any design you need more than the Theile-Small constants for the speaker, you need acoustic data. That is why Madisound declined your request.

[Loren42]

Originally Posted by clemmtec

Hi,
I want to build a good hifi speakers that will have clean and very stong bass
and want to know if any one in the Usa can build me a crossover for the
following speakers

woofer.............ciare ndh 15-4s
mid woofer......phl 330
mid range phl.........1660
tweeter............morel st 1358

Thanks

Have you purchased these drivers yet?

If not, I might suggest some alternatives that you can try to get deep bass and high SPL.

[Tuakko]

Why not use active crossover such as MiniDSP to make iterations fast and easy. It´s sure faster and more intuitive to do filters digitally even while music is playig. And if i´ve understood correctly you´ll avoid all phase errors caused by passive components. After minidsp just add four power amp modules such as 3 x Hypex 180watt for higher frequencies and 1 x 400 watt hypex for wooder. Or use cheap T-amps from 41hz Audio. I bet it´s worthwhile to use dedicated amplifiers instead of heating precious amplified signal in complex passive crossover.

[clemmtec]

Thank you for the information, I have not got any of the speakers yet .
I will be glad to hear from you on the speakers you have in mind.
Thanks again.

[Loren42]

Greetings!

Here is a proposed 3-way system I have built. Others here may have good (or even better) suggestions. I make no claims of superiority to anyone else's work, but my testing and subsequent listening have produced very satisfactory results to date.

These run flat (within 3 dB) from about 27 Hz to almost 20 kHz and have an SPL of 93 dB/Watt/Meter.

You can see an early (very early) rendition of my 3-way system here (I have updated a lot of things since then):

Pyramids

More important is the crossover design that Madisound did for me.

You can find that here with this LEAP design.

The LEAP design has one flaw. The tweeter polarity is wrong and should be reversed. When you do that everything works as it should.

You do not need to build the cabinet the way I did. It is very complex and really does not serve to improve the performance that much.

What is important is the box tuning. Right now it is 6.7 cubic feet for the woofer, but I would recommend dropping it to about 6 cubic feet or even to 5.5 cubic feet and tuning to 30 Hz. This will tighten up the bass and give it more punch.

The woofers are the venerable JBL 2235H. You can't buy them new, but you can find them on eBay if you are careful at reasonable prices. These woofers are high SPL, low distortion, and low Fs (Fs = 20 Hz). They play deep and punchy bass.

I have settled on the Audax PR170M0 midrange. These are very efficient and have a good reputation. The level may need an additional L-Pad on them to bring them down in SPL a few more dB than what the LEAP document says.

Lastly, the tweeters are Morel MDT-37. They are obsolete, but the Morel DMS-37 is a direct substitute.

Crossover points are 400 Hz and 2700 Hz.

The advantage of this line up and the crossover is that the set produce a very smooth off-axis response through the frequency range and thus good stereo imaging.

My cabinet design includes a sloped back front panel for the mid and tweeter. I also mounted the tweeter and Audax mid very close together. I had to cut the tweeter flange a little to squeeze them together.

This is a picture of my current cabinet. You can see that here:



The backward slope of the sides for the mids helps reduce the ill effects of baffle diffraction.

The slight slope backwards of the pyramid design also aims the tweeter up towards the listening position.

The midrange and tweeter are in their own sealed cabinet. Volume is 0.25 cubic feet and it is stuffed full of acoustastuff fill.

I use two flared 4" inside diameter ports that are 6.0" deep, each for the JBL. These need to be trimmed so that the box is tuned to 30 Hz.

Your box should be well braced and the panels should be thick. I am modifying mine to use a constrained layer approach, but there are many ways to manage reduction of cabinet resonances.

My material is MDF, but baltic birch plywood is a good choice. I would use a minimum of 1" thick walls. You can do this by layering the wood with glue.

MDF has fallen out of favor for me because of the excessive caustic dust. You need to wear a mask when cutting this stuff and I do it outside to reduce the mess, which is horrible.

If you want to play with constrained layering, build the cabinet using 1/2" or 5/8" ply or MDF. Then buy something called Green Glue and smear that on the outside and nail a second layer of 1/2" or 5/8" wood over the first. Only nail the edges, not in the center of the panels. You will also need to seal any exposed edges with epoxy or something to keep the Green Glue from oozing out.

The front baffle should not be constrained layered. I would make that 1.5" thick if possible.

All drivers are flush mounted to reduce diffraction.

Fill is more acoustastuff stapled onto the inside walls. You can also staple two layers of roofing felt on the inside walls and under the acoustastuff fill to further reduce cabinet resonances.

Cabinet shape is not all that important, so you have some liberty to be creative and make the design simpler to build.

Follow these instructions and you should have a formidable set of 3-ways that should give you lots of bottom end.

If you plan to really crank these speakers you can substitute the JBL 2234H woofers. They are identical to the 2235H, but lack the mass ring, which means the mid bass will be a little more punchy and the driver should handle a bit more power.

[clemmtec]

Hi Loren 42,
Before I say anything ,I want to say thank you from the bottom of my heart
I am very good with wood, I have never cut any mdf inside, and I do not
cut any wood without dust mask.
I love working with wood, and have most of the tools to get the job done.

Your taking the time to tell me step buy step as how to get it done right is mind blowing, You talk about JBL, will that be able to handle a lot of power?
I have 2 mark levinstons and I intend to mono them at 400 watts each they are
ml 23.
I was thinking about morel uw 1258 that is 800 watts or the Ciare ndh 15-4s that is 1000 watts.
I am not trying to blow my ears or my house I just want to enjoys music and I will never buy speakers again. I have to build them. I have a lot of speakers......... macintosh woofers,klischps,bose 901,altec 83...the one with the mid woofer built into the 15'' woofer,Kloss cm1230,mack one, bic ventura,bose am15,bose am 10,bose ls25,I have a set of woofers with no name it on has numbers and made in belgeum, same thing with the mid range. memphis 12" sub woofers, and lots of speakers that come out of tube radios, sony,pioneer.
Thanks you again.

[clemmtec]

Originally Posted by Tuakko

Why not use active crossover such as MiniDSP to make iterations fast and easy. It´s sure faster and more intuitive to do filters digitally even while music is playig. And if i´ve understood correctly you´ll avoid all phase errors caused by passive components. After minidsp just add four power amp modules such as 3 x Hypex 180watt for higher frequencies and 1 x 400 watt hypex for wooder. Or use cheap T-amps from 41hz Audio. I bet it´s worthwhile to use dedicated amplifiers instead of heating precious amplified signal in complex passive crossover.

I will look at these items and see what they look like, Thank you for your answer.