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Old 4th April 2010, 11:23 AM   #1
Pagnol is offline Pagnol  Germany
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Default Designing a loudspeaker intended to use with a digital crossover

Hey folks,

I've set up a working digital crossover with BruteFIR, a Marantz seven-channel surround amplifier and two-way loudspeakers (consisting of the Visaton TI100 as mid-bass-unit and KE25SC as tweeter). Since the crossover and amplification part works, I would like to build a new pair of loudspeakers to replace my current ones which I've built for testing purposes only.
There are loads of speaker designs available that rely on conventional crossovers. Naturally their authors have made compromises due this premise. My knowledge of this subject is rather limited, so am asking you what would be the perfect combination of drivers that does not need to pay attention to any limitations due to an elctric crossover? To me, the Beyma TPL-150 looks very good. Others in this forum have combined this driver with Acoustic Elegance TD12M. Unfortunately I cannot find too much information on them, no diagrams etc.

Pagnol
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Old 4th April 2010, 10:08 PM   #2
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Hi Pagnol, I see what you mean. I find also myself, very annoying, the lack of information sometimes. Manufacturers could easily double their sales when (if) they have complete sets of T/S specs and other data like "Exported CLIO Frequency Response (TXT)" and "Exported CLIO Impedance (TXT)" files necessary for X-over and speaker simulations.
The Beyma TPL is one of the best, as you know. The Lambda/AE also, but sometimes dificult to know about basics (like which one has rubber surround and which one has not, and pictures are very small). Hope this helps.

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Last edited by Inductor; 4th April 2010 at 10:13 PM.
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Old 5th April 2010, 12:23 AM   #3
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pagnol View Post
There are loads of speaker designs available that rely on conventional crossovers. Naturally their authors have made compromises due this premise. My knowledge of this subject is rather limited, so am asking you what would be the perfect combination of drivers that does not need to pay attention to any limitations due to an elctric crossover? To me, the Beyma TPL-150 looks very good. Others in this forum have combined this driver with Acoustic Elegance TD12M. Unfortunately I cannot find too much information on them, no diagrams etc.

Pagnol
Who says you so not need to pay attention to the drivers and their anomalies when using an active Xover vs a passive one. Active makes it easier to hit your targets and not have them vary with driver performance eg temperature.

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The Lambda/AE also, but sometimes dificult to know about basics (like which one has rubber surround and which one has not, and pictures are very small)
Not difficult at all. John J has spoken about the driver design details on several forums, and all you'd have needed to do was ask on his.

Of the TD series drivers the M's are pleated paper, and the others are foam as are the AV drivers and I would presume all of the other high excursion units.
No experience with the older lambda made drivers.
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Old 5th April 2010, 12:50 PM   #4
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Not difficult at all. John J has spoken about the driver design details on several forums, and all you'd have needed to do was ask on his.
I already said "many" times, if you want to sell more drivers (or whatever) make technical information available, don't make it a marketing "surprise".
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Old 5th April 2010, 02:00 PM   #5
doug20 is offline doug20  United States
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I have the TD12Ms and Im measuring building a Waveguide speaker with them right now (Ported design tuned to 60Hz).

Its an active design but Im not using CD/waveguides as my tweeter.

I would love to get a hold of the Beyma TPL-150 but its a little too price, I do have Neopro5i ribbons that I was considering matching with the TD12M too or using this tweeter
Welcome to E-Speakers.com - Very High End Loudspeaker Components but IMO the TD12M doesnt go high enough and a midrange driver is needed (I used the PHL1120 in a 3 way with the TD12 series woofer also).

Someone else linked to Augerpro's measurements above so you have all the info needed on it. How high do you want to crossover that TD12M?

Last edited by doug20; 5th April 2010 at 02:02 PM.
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Old 5th April 2010, 02:03 PM   #6
doug20 is offline doug20  United States
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Originally Posted by Inductor View Post
I already said "many" times, if you want to sell more drivers (or whatever) make technical information available, don't make it a marketing "surprise".
You have to understand that John has little time, he hand builds this stuff. he has HUGE demands on the pro audio side so he has little concern about the DIY market. Heck, his most recent subwoofer kits are amazing (twin 15" PR designs, dual 15" sealed designs).

I doubt he can sell MORE at this time so it does not matter to him. Many of us have purchased many of his drivers and have had them measured. All the info exists.
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Old 6th April 2010, 01:18 AM   #7
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Originally Posted by Pagnol View Post
...so am asking you what would be the perfect combination of drivers that does not need to pay attention to any limitations due to an elctric crossover? To me, the Beyma TPL-150 looks very good. Others in this forum have combined this driver with Acoustic Elegance TD12M. Unfortunately I cannot find too much information on them, no diagrams etc.

Pagnol
I'm not into active, but the Visaton TI100 is 85dB "flat" between 400-2KHz for a mid and the Visaton KE25SC is one of the best tweeters in the world. Good from 1.5KHz to 25K it just needs a 5dB atten. to be at same level (in passive terms with the mid) and the use of a passive network (x-over) for protection from LF when you use active X-over (the same with the TPL I would guess). With the new set-up/drivers you mention is a totally different story. Also with the amps and X-overs, some have built in protection for overloads.

Last edited by Inductor; 6th April 2010 at 01:46 AM.
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Old 6th April 2010, 02:38 AM   #8
tinitus is online now tinitus  Europe
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With active crossover and choosing drivers and design, the main difference I see is the possibility of matching driver SPL by adding gain instead of attenuating, which makes a lot more options possible
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Old 6th April 2010, 12:02 PM   #9
Pagnol is offline Pagnol  Germany
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I don't quite see your point.

I've done the following: I've taken the frequency response of both drivers respectively and used an equalizer (the one that is built into BruteFIR) to equalize or linearize their frequency responses in such a way that both drivers play at exactly the same level of dB. And after that I cut them at 2500 Hz.

@tinitus
I guess, this is what you mean by "matching driver SPL by adding gain".
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Old 6th April 2010, 01:33 PM   #10
doug20 is offline doug20  United States
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Originally Posted by Inductor View Post
I'm not into active, but the Visaton TI100 is 85dB "flat" between 400-2KHz for a mid and the Visaton KE25SC is one of the best tweeters in the world. Good from 1.5KHz to 25K it just needs a 5dB atten. to be at same level (in passive terms with the mid) and the use of a passive network (x-over) for protection from LF when you use active X-over (the same with the TPL I would guess). With the new set-up/drivers you mention is a totally different story. Also with the amps and X-overs, some have built in protection for overloads.
I wouldnt waste the potential of the TD series drivers with an audiophile low sensitivity mid choice.

TD series honestly should be matched with a dome or CD in a waveguide, a ribbon, a pro audio mid (B&C, PHL etc). Of course the Beyma TPL is an good choice too...

If a low SPL audiophile design is the choice then the TD Series really isnt a good fit. I think the OP wants power handling and SPL w/ low distortion though!

Last edited by doug20; 6th April 2010 at 01:35 PM.
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