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Old 4th March 2010, 03:50 AM   #1
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Default 3-way big sound...

looking to do a 3-way... this will be my first diy speaker build. i'm looking for deep bass slam, not too revealing midrange, and clear but not too bright highs. i listen to 80% metal, 10% industrial, 10% war theme classical. some of the music i listen too doesnt have good recordings. soo... i wanna stay away from aluminum and magnesium drivers. i had some klipsch rf-83's. those speakers were a joke... loud as hell and couldnt hear much kick-drum. had to use a sub in 2ch mode. pretty sad for a speaker thats suppose to play down to 32hz.

driver selection i'm thinking 15", 6.5", and silk dome tweeter. i really like the specs on the SEAS Excel W18NX-001 drivers. i need help on box design aswell. any help would be awesome.
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Old 4th March 2010, 04:17 AM   #2
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We need a few questions answered first.
Like always
how big is the room?? how big can the speaker boxes be and how deep are your pockets for this project?????
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Old 4th March 2010, 04:26 AM   #3
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Moondog55 View Post
We need a few questions answered first.
Like always
how big is the room?? how big can the speaker boxes be and how deep are your pockets for this project?????


room size? medium to large. dont know the exact measurements. speaker size? i like big speakers, bigger the better

budget? $1,500
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Old 4th March 2010, 04:40 AM   #4
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Well I like big speakers too, but it does make a difference. Could you live with a couple of 50gallon drums sitting in on top of each other; one in each corner ??

From what you say then I think that you need 2 * 15inch woofers to go loud with out distorting. That $1500, is that for the drivers or the whole package drivers, wood and crossover??

Loud and deep cost a lot of money ( although things are much cheaper in the USA it is still relative )
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Old 4th March 2010, 04:57 AM   #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Moondog55 View Post
Well I like big speakers too, but it does make a difference. Could you live with a couple of 50gallon drums sitting in on top of each other; one in each corner ??

From what you say then I think that you need 2 * 15inch woofers to go loud with out distorting. That $1500, is that for the drivers or the whole package drivers, wood and crossover??

Loud and deep cost a lot of money ( although things are much cheaper in the USA it is still relative )


dual 15"s per box sounds awesome... $1,500 is for speakers and crossovers. i have a buddy who owns a custom cabinet shop. i figured i would use mdf and some type of vaneer cover. i like the look of piano black, but that would be very costly. i'm more concerned with performance than looks
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Old 4th March 2010, 06:43 AM   #6
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Good timing for this as I've been asked to work on a project for someone else that almost matches your criteria. I was asked if he thought we could design something like the Magna Cum Laude but better and I think we can. However, that is already finished and all you'd need to do is buy the bits and you could be listening soon. My projects are notoriously slow.

Being in the US gives you lots of quite affordable options, for example Acoustic Elegance drivers as well as Eminence and many of the great European Pro drivers at great prices.

So far, as I was only asked a couple of days ago and have a few initial ideas, I'll present them as such with my ideas for each range and with rough xover points in my head, to be confirmed on measurement.

(in the order I thought of them, not preference)

LF:1: Eminence 3015LF in 120L net ported and tuned to 40Hz.
2: 2 x Eminence 3012LF 90L tuned to 35Hz with electronic Q+2 HPF at 35Hz (simulated FR and excursion files attached)
3: secondhand JBL2226 in 55L tuned to 40Hz with a similar filter at 40Hz
4: several AE drivers, but I need to know how big you really want. Is 6cf/side for the LF too much? Do you have issues with using passive radiators?

MF: 1: B&C 6MD38
2: 18Sound 6ND410
3: AE TD6.5M - should finally be available in the next couple of weeks
4: B&C 8NDL51
5: PHL 6.5" units

HF: I don't use domes, so you're on your own there, but I have several CD and WG options such as the B&C DE10 on the 18Sound XT120
2: Fountek NeoPro5i

The plan is to get the chosen drivers, measure them all then build a passive xover for it, (circa 200-300Hz and 1500-2500Hz) as the fool (/Mr T voice) won't tri-amp. If the electronic filters are chosen for the bottom end, they are easy to build and cheap and will go between pre and poweramps.
Attached Images
File Type: gif VB Response Eminence 3012LF.gif (24.3 KB, 823 views)
File Type: gif VB Excursion Eminence 3012LF.gif (21.5 KB, 816 views)

Last edited by Brett; 4th March 2010 at 06:49 AM.
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Old 4th March 2010, 07:16 AM   #7
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Brett the Magna Cum Loud was the one I was thinking of but I could not remember the name ( Early onset old-timers disease )

Similar but with dual 15's ?? would need a low crossing mid-bass wouldn't it??

Another thought use a 15 for a 0.5 sub-woofer and a 12 or 10 up to 200Hz??
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Old 4th March 2010, 10:55 AM   #8
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The Seas Nextel midrange is a great choice.
Whats your criteria for box dimensions and how powerful is your amp?
A 12" woofer may be more suitable.
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Old 4th March 2010, 12:44 PM   #9
Loren42 is offline Loren42  United States
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Let's step back.

Before you throw money around, why not discover why your Klipsch speakers are not delivering the bass you want.

My concern is that you have a room issue and no matter what you build it will not deliver the bass you want.

A few hundred dollars invested in a test mic, stand, and sound card, coupled with HOLMImpulse would go a long way to determine what the acoustic health of your room is like.

You can add room treatments and get the overall room response in check using the KEF speakers. After you have fixed the room, if you don't like the Klipsch speakers, then let's have fun building the sound system you desire.

Finally, a 3-way system is a particular challenge for a first time build. The crossovers are very complex compared to a 2-way and there are more design hurdles to cross with a 3-way system than there are with 2-way systems.

Last edited by Loren42; 4th March 2010 at 12:48 PM.
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Old 4th March 2010, 01:50 PM   #10
Loren42 is offline Loren42  United States
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FYI - Here is the 3-Way system I am developing. It is still an ongoing project, but I am converging to the finish line. This would fit your budget, but the cabinets are very complex. Only two panels are parallel to each other in the whole box, so there are a lot of angular cuts.

Pyramid IV

A more recent picture:

Click the image to open in full size.

The web page is almost a year old and since then there have been some changes:

1. System now has JBL 2235H woofers. These are world-class drivers with excellent low end bass. They are discontinued drivers, so you need to buy them used. Expect to pay $400 and up for a pair. The best route is to either buy baskets and have genuine JBL cones installed, or get a pair that you are certain have real JBL parts. There are a lot of generic recones out there, so beware. A recent pair showed up on eBay new in the box and sold for $810. Considering a genuine JBL recone costs as much as $500 for two drivers, you would do better to buy baskets and have them reconed and still do better than that price.

2. An Audax PR170M0 mid has been substituted in place of the Eminence mid. A temporary L-Pad (not shown in the LEAP schematic) is being used to turn down the mid level as the LEAP crossover design is a little too hot for the mid.

3. The flares for the two ports have been added to the box and all drivers are now flush mounted.

Internal cabinet volume is 6.7 cubic feet. I need to add some more internal bracing or wall treatments, so that will go down in volume somewhat.

If I had to do this over again I might increase the box size slightly so that I could access the crossover network from the back of the cabinet and I would either add more bracing or a combination of changes to the material and material thickness of the cabinet walls. Specifically, I would probably recommend a constrained layer approach for the walls out of cabinet grade Baltic Birch plywood (two 1/2" sheets sandwiched with a thin layer of butyl rubber).

Another thought would be to backset the mid and tweeter to better time-align the drivers. Again, a larger cabinet would be in order to allow those changes.

This system should be flat to just about 30 Hz and has a 93 dB/Watt/Meter efficiency. They are big speakers and make a lot of sound effortlessly in my 15' by 30' room with a cathedral ceiling, yet the stereo imaging and stage presence is very good and further improvements are in the cards.

I would consider this particular design a pretty advanced design. The driver combination is a good line up, but you may want to consider a more traditional rectangular box, as that would be easier to construct.

This design would serve well being Bi-Amped, too.
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