seriously mods, this is not intended to be a troll. if it does turn into a flame fest feel free to lock, delete whatever.
i want to ask those people who do not own ESL speakers why you do not ?
i am trying to understand why ESL speakers have a relatively limited penetration of the market.
when i was a high school student i thought it was due to cost because back then for me anything more than a few hundred bucks seemed ridiculously expensive. but now i know that many people use dynamic speakers in the same price range as martin logan products for example, so it's probably not the price.
i also thought it had to be the size. but many people use dipoles, horn or TL systems that are heavier and visually more imposing than some martin logans.
then i thought that maybe its because they have no bass ? but hybrid designs like ML do have plenty of bass. every bit as much as any other speaker of comparable cost. so that's not it either.
so what is it ?
i am theoretically considering building ESL speakers commercially, just theoretically. and it would be extremely stupid if i actually built them tried to sell them, they didn't sell and then i asked the question WHY ? i just feel like the question why they don't sell has to be asked FIRST before even considering whether whether i could in fact pull off building them.
i was at a high-end speaker store in Manhattan don't remember the name but it was some kind of exchange. hi-fi exchange or something. they had high-class speaekers like B&W 800 series and Sonus Faber ( both of which i auditioned there ) but they didn't have any ESLs which is what ( at the time ) i really wanted to audition. does this make sense ?
on the other hand later on i did see martin logans in a big-box electronics store which didn't sell any high-end speakers other than that. does THAT make sense ?
do ESLs in fact sell in large volumes but not generate a lot of discussion because they are "old news" ? ? ?
i would like to hear everybody's opinions. if you DO own ESL speakers but sit on this forum rather than exotics and planars - i would like to hear your reasons on that as well.
i want to ask those people who do not own ESL speakers why you do not ?
i am trying to understand why ESL speakers have a relatively limited penetration of the market.
when i was a high school student i thought it was due to cost because back then for me anything more than a few hundred bucks seemed ridiculously expensive. but now i know that many people use dynamic speakers in the same price range as martin logan products for example, so it's probably not the price.
i also thought it had to be the size. but many people use dipoles, horn or TL systems that are heavier and visually more imposing than some martin logans.
then i thought that maybe its because they have no bass ? but hybrid designs like ML do have plenty of bass. every bit as much as any other speaker of comparable cost. so that's not it either.
so what is it ?
i am theoretically considering building ESL speakers commercially, just theoretically. and it would be extremely stupid if i actually built them tried to sell them, they didn't sell and then i asked the question WHY ? i just feel like the question why they don't sell has to be asked FIRST before even considering whether whether i could in fact pull off building them.
i was at a high-end speaker store in Manhattan don't remember the name but it was some kind of exchange. hi-fi exchange or something. they had high-class speaekers like B&W 800 series and Sonus Faber ( both of which i auditioned there ) but they didn't have any ESLs which is what ( at the time ) i really wanted to audition. does this make sense ?
on the other hand later on i did see martin logans in a big-box electronics store which didn't sell any high-end speakers other than that. does THAT make sense ?
do ESLs in fact sell in large volumes but not generate a lot of discussion because they are "old news" ? ? ?
i would like to hear everybody's opinions. if you DO own ESL speakers but sit on this forum rather than exotics and planars - i would like to hear your reasons on that as well.
While I have nothing against the way they sound, the problems are:
1) They are expensive
2) The lack MAX power output
3) They are big
4) They lack bass
other than that they sound great. Oh did I mention they are expensive, and in general not very reliable.
Member
Joined 2003
I haven't experienced ESL speakers, but I can echo what Earl says of their reputation. Big and expensive automatically makes them a small market in the commercial sector. DIY thrives on "bang for the buck" and I think ESL isn't it for a lot of people.
Having not experienced SL speakers, I wonder if "dangerous" should be on the list as well. At least from a DIY perspective, the more people stay away from high voltage the better.
Having not experienced SL speakers, I wonder if "dangerous" should be on the list as well. At least from a DIY perspective, the more people stay away from high voltage the better.
what about the whole lobing and dispersion John was talking about - do you find that a significant issue from standpoint of audibility ?
from what i understand a large ESL panel driven by a very strong amp and high passed at a high enough frequency can get plenty loud ?
can you elaborate on that ? are you referring to lack of bass or something else ?
i would not want to sell speakers that don't rock. it's probably the only thing i agree with Geddes on - expensive speakers must be loud just like expensive cars must be fast. and that even if you don't fancy going deaf or getting killed.
the relevant loudness however is from 30hz to 60hz ...
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Why Not ESL's?
Just MY Opinion!
I have owned ML Aerius i's, Acoustat 2+2's, and 6 Acoustat panels per side driven by Acoustat X amps that are direct drive tube amps - no step up transformers. I've also had Apogee Duetta II Signatures and Magnepans just FYI and a reference point. I've heard many ML Speakers properly set up and driven in dealer's showrooms. Although the best (more expensive) ML's have incredible sound, the lower priced ones suffer from small but significant flaws. This could be said of any drivers, dynamic, planar magnetic, or ESL's. They all have characteristics of their own. I also think more money has poured in to the R & D of dynamic drivers than other designs.
1. Slight lack of true dynamic rendition of things like rimshots, bass drum hits, and the lowest bass in full range ESL's. Something missing in the gut.
2. Small lack of cohesive crossover between the woofer and panels.
3. A larger than life imaging that makes a sax or trumpet seem like 6 feet by 6 feet. Trying to get ESL's large enough to render good dynamics and bass means they need a larger room, which means one needs larger panels to render good bass and dynamics, which means one needs a larger room... and bigger amps...
4. They are demanding of power amplifiers. Wide variations in impedance that place a big need for beefy CLEAN amps. The Aerius i's have a dip to 1.7 ohms in the high end IIRC. CLS's went to 1 ohm or less. This gets to be even more of a problem if one prefers tube amps.
Again, I have heard some of the most accurate, head turning sound from ESL's but usually from the high priced - mega amped models in large rooms.
Just for reference I have settled on homebrew speakers made from Klipsch RF-7 woofers and Heil AMT tweeters. They beat any of the previously mentioned speakers that I've owned, and 16 watts will break a lease. Dynamic speakers just seem to be a better value than equally priced ESL's. If money were not an object I just might have the best ML's, or the top Maggies.
Just MY Opinion!
I have owned ML Aerius i's, Acoustat 2+2's, and 6 Acoustat panels per side driven by Acoustat X amps that are direct drive tube amps - no step up transformers. I've also had Apogee Duetta II Signatures and Magnepans just FYI and a reference point. I've heard many ML Speakers properly set up and driven in dealer's showrooms. Although the best (more expensive) ML's have incredible sound, the lower priced ones suffer from small but significant flaws. This could be said of any drivers, dynamic, planar magnetic, or ESL's. They all have characteristics of their own. I also think more money has poured in to the R & D of dynamic drivers than other designs.
1. Slight lack of true dynamic rendition of things like rimshots, bass drum hits, and the lowest bass in full range ESL's. Something missing in the gut.
2. Small lack of cohesive crossover between the woofer and panels.
3. A larger than life imaging that makes a sax or trumpet seem like 6 feet by 6 feet. Trying to get ESL's large enough to render good dynamics and bass means they need a larger room, which means one needs larger panels to render good bass and dynamics, which means one needs a larger room... and bigger amps...
4. They are demanding of power amplifiers. Wide variations in impedance that place a big need for beefy CLEAN amps. The Aerius i's have a dip to 1.7 ohms in the high end IIRC. CLS's went to 1 ohm or less. This gets to be even more of a problem if one prefers tube amps.
Again, I have heard some of the most accurate, head turning sound from ESL's but usually from the high priced - mega amped models in large rooms.
Just for reference I have settled on homebrew speakers made from Klipsch RF-7 woofers and Heil AMT tweeters. They beat any of the previously mentioned speakers that I've owned, and 16 watts will break a lease. Dynamic speakers just seem to be a better value than equally priced ESL's. If money were not an object I just might have the best ML's, or the top Maggies.
so if i understand you correctly you are saying that a speaker like this:
http://www.adam-audio.com/en/home-audio/products/column/description
will outperform all but the most expensive ESLs ?
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i understand the sweet spot comment. but what do you mean by no impact ? can't they go loud enough with enough power and high enough crossover point to the woofer ?
"can't they go loud enough with enough power and high enough crossover point to the
woofer ?"
That's where you get into trouble. They lack dynamic realism and the natural urge to turn it up to compensate just increases distortion. They can sound pretty and very revealing at moderate levels. If that's all you expect from your speakers ESLs will keep you happy.
woofer ?"
That's where you get into trouble. They lack dynamic realism and the natural urge to turn it up to compensate just increases distortion. They can sound pretty and very revealing at moderate levels. If that's all you expect from your speakers ESLs will keep you happy.
I've never seen or heard them. Each woofer has its own 200W amp. No way to tell from looking at them. Just because it has ART drivers doesn't mean they are well designed, well built, or have good sound. I'm only going on what I have personally owned or heard. I think some of the problem with ESL's is that the sound is spread out all over the large panel. Imagine a bass drum attempting to produce cymbals. Remember, the electrostatic panel is driving a mass of air. This air is a significant load and is more than the weight of the plastic membrane. Just for another exercise, calculate the displacement of an 8" woofer moving 1/4" each way and then calculate the displacement of a 12" by 36" ESL panel. Remember that the panel is only at peak excursion in the center, and that it is only moving within the confines of the front and rear stator screens. Also, remember that must maintain a certain clearance from either screen so it does not arc over. 3 kv/mm I think.
i thought the opposite was true.
when i heard MLs they were very dynamic and i kept asking the owner to turn them down a little but he kept turning them back up to uncomfortable levels.
no i am talking about building speakers and selling them. its either i can make a universally perfect speaker or it's not worth bothering.
there are already plenty of very good speakers for every taste. making another one doesn't interest me.
i think ESLs come close to perfection but i don't know if they reach it ? if i could identify ESL flaws and determine that they can be fixed i would maybe try that. if not - not.
i don't want to be in the tweaking business - others are perfectly good at that. i don't want to compete with anybody, as Rockefeller said - competition is a sin
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Member
Joined 2003
i don't know what cost has to do with this. its just stators and film - should cost next to nothing TO BUILD. but the selling price ? whatever the market will bear
size - whatever looks most awesome and still fits in a large living room.
universally perfect means free of the downsides that we can identify with existing speakers. faultless. for example full range ESLs we have identified as having narrow sweet spot and weak bass - so a faultless speaker couldn't be a full range ESL, it would have to be something else. as long as we can identify all the flaws i could probably work out a solution - that's why i am asking what do you perceive as the flaws ?
of course there is no such thing as truly faultless reproduction of an event in a room other than the room in which it originally took place. once we raise the bar of performance to this pseudo-faultless ( meaning, faultless as of our current understanding ) level we will be in position to start identifying new flaws. but that's irrelevant, because by that time it would be sold already
universally perfect means you send it to stereophile for review and they can only say vague things about it like it reminds me of this sort of wine or that but can't really find any hard incriminating evidence on it.
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