"BEST" Woofer 50Hz - 300Hz & Hi eff, maybe 15" ?? - Page 6 - diyAudio
Go Back   Home > Forums > Loudspeakers > Multi-Way

Multi-Way Conventional loudspeakers with crossovers

Please consider donating to help us continue to serve you.

Ads on/off / Custom Title / More PMs / More album space / Advanced printing & mass image saving
Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Old 12th January 2010, 06:01 PM   #51
doug20 is offline doug20  United States
diyAudio Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Quote:
Originally Posted by chrismercurio View Post
SBP15 is an old paper coned subwoofer. It reaches lower than the TD15s in slightly larger boxes and has a more conventional looking dustcap. Regarding the 18, it is too sensitive and too big for my needs and doesn't offer the extension. I agree that it does look cool though.

Parameters for the SBP15 are as follows. This is for the 4ohm version. 8ohm is available also:

Fs: 21.3Hz
Qms: 5.35
Vas: 364L
Cms: .35mm/N
Mms: 160g
Rms: 4kg/s
Xmax: 18mm
Sd: 855sqcm
Vd: 3.08L
Qes: .47
Re: 2.7ohm
Le: .3mH
Z: 4ohm
BL: 11.1 Tm
Qts: .43
1wSPL: 90.7dB

Cool, never knew about that one.

I have many TD series drivers and the AV15X. I really want to swap out one of my TD bass bins and try the AV15X up to 400Hz.
  Reply With Quote
Old 12th January 2010, 06:02 PM   #52
el`Ol is offline el`Ol  Germany
diyAudio Member
 
Join Date: May 2005
Location: Bavarian Forest
Quote:
Originally Posted by MarzZ View Post
I am very interested in this thread. I am looking for the same thing. I have great FR and SPL from 20-50hz, but need something to fill in the mid-bass accurately from 50hz-300hz. With a line array (ie 2-10's or 12's) at these frequencies, does comb filtering still play a factor in the timbre of sound on-axis or off?
Here is a very good paper about line arrays:
http://www.audioroundtable.com/misc/nflawp.pdf
According to my calculations the sensitivity gain in one meter distance is 10 Log (2 meters / driver distance) and the given formula 10 Log (number of drivers used) is only true for a typical height of 2 meters, but I think the rest is correct.
  Reply With Quote
Old 12th January 2010, 07:13 PM   #53
Xoc1 is offline Xoc1  United Kingdom
diyAudio Member
 
Xoc1's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: Devon UK
Default Using Cabinet for Hi-Pass filter?

Quote:
Looking to fill between a sub system that actually covers from 65Hz down up to a horn that actually covers from 250Hz up - so the required passband is ~65Hz to ~300Hz. Don't worry about the xovers needed or the cabinet size or type! I'll handle that part. Mention it though
Bear, what sort of low pass crossover would be used on the sub?
My thinking is that a efficient 15" driver in a sealed box of about 80 litres would give the same inital roll off as a second order butterworth filter tuned to 65Hz.
I have used a Fane XB 15" driver in this sim.
Extended response is a 170 litre reflex cab (would quickly run out of X max!)
red plot is the same with a 2nd order hi-pass butterworth @65hz.
Yellow plot is a sealed 80 litre box.
Attached Images
File Type: jpg Sealed 15 resp.JPG (154.1 KB, 483 views)
  Reply With Quote
Old 12th January 2010, 10:02 PM   #54
diyAudio Member
 
bear's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: New York State USA
Xoc1,

I use a 24db/oct xover on the top end of the sub.
The idea is to let the low end of the "filler" roll itself off... non-ideal I understand, but it's not terribly significant imho and adding in a HP to the "filler' driver is always an option... I physically align the drivers for the best impulse response (the initial spike adds).

If I were to do the LP for the sub again, I'd use a completely different sort of filter, but that's a story for another time. I have the 4th order box.

_-_-bear
__________________
_-_-bear
http://www.bearlabs.com -- Btw, I don't actually know anything, FYI -- [...2SJ74 Toshiba bogus asian parts - beware! ]
  Reply With Quote
Old 12th January 2010, 10:04 PM   #55
diyAudio Member
 
bear's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: New York State USA
Quote:
Originally Posted by chrismercurio View Post
~100db single woofer... JBL D130?

I simmed it in a big@ss box and it's 100/101db 1w/2.83v in 2pi space with the kind of extension you want. I have only heard them in some screaming guitar amplifiers but will remain forever impressed by the combination.

regards,
...entirely possible, but they have somewhat limited power handling... not withstanding their use in guitar amps...

It is a fine driver... but may extend too high and have some peakiness due to the aluminum dustcap. All things that could be overcome... I am considering them, btw.

_-_-bear
__________________
_-_-bear
http://www.bearlabs.com -- Btw, I don't actually know anything, FYI -- [...2SJ74 Toshiba bogus asian parts - beware! ]
  Reply With Quote
Old 12th January 2010, 10:12 PM   #56
diyAudio Member
 
chrismercurio's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Silicon Valley
I honestly think its a slam dunk. When I thought of 100db 15" woofer and didn't consider current offerings only it jumped to the top of the list in my head. I would throw a kilowatt Crown or Lab Gruppen at it, but it isn't for that.

Danny McKinney uses them in his Standel amps as they were used originally. (and they are bitchin)

Chris
  Reply With Quote
Old 12th January 2010, 10:21 PM   #57
diyAudio Member
 
bear's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: New York State USA
Quote:
Originally Posted by doug20 View Post
What max SPL do you need, what amps do you have? Sensitivity should only be a conditional spec based on actually requirements.

IE...a 92dB driver can play above 120 dBs just as well as a 99dB driver. It just needs more power. I give my TD12S, 500Watts each...lots of headroom, heck I never remotely hit their max SPL peaks.

There's more to it than just the "ability" to play at high SPLs... for reasons that are not entirely clear to me they don't seem to sound quite the same. Perhaps the reason is that there is a difference in distortion or harmonics produced by an "efficient" motor being run at lower power as compared to a "normal" motor being run at highish power. Dunno really.

Also, you loose the option of using amps that are "more subtle" - being lower power from tubes or class A solid state and must use high power SS amps then. That too changes the subjectively received sonics...

My horns are 109db/1w/1m... staying within the 10dB "window" gives me a nice option of using the Pass F5 with ~15db gain vs. my Symphony No.1 amp (see my website...) at ~26db gain and having a "magic" match.

I don't really want to play anything at 120dB, ever - I want uncompressed peaks when the source material has peaks of 20+dB. Imho that's one of the things that makes things sound effortless and natural.

So, if we're at an average of ~93dB SPL at the listening position which is 6-9meters from the speakers, and we need 20+dB of headroom, you can start to see what the requirements really are.

Few systems can really dish this out without clipping the amps or reaching the dynamic limits of the speakers (and/or getting significant non-linear distortion).

No doubt some of these newer high power woofers represent an interesting solution, but do require very high power amplifiers and at least I have reservations about how those amps might sound in this range. (it might be fine... fwiw)

_-_-bear
__________________
_-_-bear
http://www.bearlabs.com -- Btw, I don't actually know anything, FYI -- [...2SJ74 Toshiba bogus asian parts - beware! ]
  Reply With Quote
Old 12th January 2010, 10:39 PM   #58
diyAudio Member
 
bear's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: New York State USA
Quote:
Originally Posted by el`Ol View Post
Here is a very good paper about line arrays:
http://www.audioroundtable.com/misc/nflawp.pdf
According to my calculations the sensitivity gain in one meter distance is 10 Log (2 meters / driver distance) and the given formula 10 Log (number of drivers used) is only true for a typical height of 2 meters, but I think the rest is correct.
Nice paper...

for this application, a "filler" woofer from ~65 - ~300Hz., the game is somewhat different than the wide range line array that is the design goal of the paper.

We do get some gain in sensitivity with a series paralleled array of drivers, that's good. But we end up with using a lot of drivers whose performance is still the same as a single driver. To get a single driver that is good enough in that range and also starts out with >90db SPL/1w/1m and has any real power handling is not likely to be an inexpensive driver!

Take a look at my website, under "Archives" and look for the CVSR. That was ~1976 and those were Peerless 5.25" drivers. It took a Phase Linear 700 to make it rock. Super power for that day. It's also a relatively huge box.

Most small drivers tend to have highish Fs, in the 50 - 70hz. range, which depending somewhat upon Qt will be difficult to get flat down to that range...

When ur all done, in the range we're talking about, I think a modern 15" driver will be more robust, more sensitive and likely have similar or better output SPL capability... but it would be nice to identify a small driver that could be used in an array of some sort for this application.

_-_-bear
__________________
_-_-bear
http://www.bearlabs.com -- Btw, I don't actually know anything, FYI -- [...2SJ74 Toshiba bogus asian parts - beware! ]
  Reply With Quote
Old 12th January 2010, 11:28 PM   #59
diyAudio Member
 
InclinedPlane's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Maine
I'd like to see detailed specs on the D130. I've looked before, but came up empty.
__________________
I must confess my favorite music is that made by the Rolls Royce Merlin.
  Reply With Quote
Old 13th January 2010, 01:30 AM   #60
MarzZ is offline MarzZ  United States
diyAudio Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Seattle
Quote:
Originally Posted by el`Ol View Post
Here is a very good paper about line arrays:
http://www.audioroundtable.com/misc/nflawp.pdf
According to my calculations the sensitivity gain in one meter distance is 10 Log (2 meters / driver distance) and the given formula 10 Log (number of drivers used) is only true for a typical height of 2 meters, but I think the rest is correct.
Very good article, thanks, I have been looking for something like this.

It didn't talk much about the negatives of line arrays, such as some peoples perception of exaggerated height with vocals and there was no discussion on open baffle line arrays, which I am also curious about.

...Now back to the search for the "Best" woofer for 50hz-300. Can someone suggest an inexpensive, well performing woofer for this application? Would this be of the Eminence stock?
  Reply With Quote

Reply


Hide this!Advertise here!
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
What's the "right way" to get Logitech Z680s running on 230v 50hz mains? xaphod Parts 4 11th December 2007 09:55 PM
Looking for a ~40-300Hz Horn solution with a 15" Driver Bass-Depth Multi-Way 20 1st April 2006 04:19 PM
Interesting Cheap - possible "fullrange" eff. driver ScottG Full Range 1 27th March 2006 11:28 PM
Wanted: Volt 12" and 15" woofer gengis Swap Meet 0 12th April 2005 12:29 PM
WTB: Focal & Audiom & Volts 11", 12", 13", 15" woofer gengis Swap Meet 0 17th March 2005 02:29 AM


New To Site? Need Help?

All times are GMT. The time now is 04:54 PM.


vBulletin Optimisation provided by vB Optimise (Pro) - vBulletin Mods & Addons Copyright © 2014 DragonByte Technologies Ltd.
Copyright 1999-2014 diyAudio

Content Relevant URLs by vBSEO 3.3.2