Please remember that you won't find any 15" woofer that's 99 dB below baffle-step
Which is why I put a caveat with my suggestions regarding 2pi space or using a horn. I second the GPA/ALTEC recommendations as long as box size is not a problem.
A 50hz bass horn would be really big though.
Easier to just buy a La Scala...
Here is an Altec 416 drop-in replacement:
OlimpiaAudio_ClevelandW416
The neo version seems good for the OB solution, but I don´t trust their claimed sensitivity, probably nonsense.
OlimpiaAudio_ClevelandW416
The neo version seems good for the OB solution, but I don´t trust their claimed sensitivity, probably nonsense.
FaitalPRO - Neodymium Professional Drivers
This 99db short Xmax 15" might be interesting
And relatively cheap
Lowish Fs and highish Qts means it gets down there
Closed box calc says 98db at 100hz
If you calculate a -6db at Xover point it should get down there
As StigErik suggests, TWO 15" would be....
But how to get the sub up at SPL ?
This 99db short Xmax 15" might be interesting
And relatively cheap
Lowish Fs and highish Qts means it gets down there
Closed box calc says 98db at 100hz
If you calculate a -6db at Xover point it should get down there
As StigErik suggests, TWO 15" would be....
But how to get the sub up at SPL ?
Do it right and forget about. A proper sized 50 Hz bass horn will walk all over a single 15 direct radiator. A single 15 is a toy when used with a mid horn that works down to 250 Hz. Mixing direct radiator bass with horn mid is a disaster when compared to fully horn loaded
I have a similar situation with the Unity doing 300hz and up. My solution is a pair of AE TD15X (Brandons measurements here) in my case, one above and one below the Unity. Each will be in a roughly 125L net sealed box, giving a Q~0.62 unstuffed and an f3 of 60Hz and an f10 of 30Hz.Opinions please:
Regardless of box size, flatness of response counts, tonal quality counts, high sensitivity counts.
The goal is to be VERY FLAT and 99db/1w/1m - but I'll take tone, fidelity and flat response with a lower sensitivity and use a more powerful amp, assuming the driver takes power...
Looking to fill between a sub system that actually covers from 65Hz down up to a horn that actually covers from 250Hz up - so the required passband is ~65Hz to ~300Hz. Don't worry about the xovers needed or the cabinet size or type! I'll handle that part. Mention it though.
Sensitivity calcs out at 97.5dB/W or 101.9 dB/2.83V according to Unibox.
A few things here...
a horn is not an option in this system.
the higher the sensitivity the better in terms of matching.
a single driver in 15" is the limit in terms of space. 2 x 12" is feasible...
I've got experience with the Altecs, the JBLs and the Focal 15 series... thinking to myself that of the lot the Focals might be the best sounding.
Again, I do not want or need to go below ~50-60Hz. I've got killer subs for that area.
Tonal quality and fidelity are the criteria that I'm concerned with - natural sound - Mingus ought to sound like his bass is in the room... and not sound like someone else's instrument... and of course maximum sensitivity.
Upper bass to die for? Ideas are nice, actual experience is better.
_-_-bear
PS. the JBLs sound ok, but have a kinda dead and non dynamic presentation - and maybe don't reach their sensitivity specs? Maybe they are better than what I just said... but I'd maybe tend toward a K140 or earlier driver... dunno.
a horn is not an option in this system.
the higher the sensitivity the better in terms of matching.
a single driver in 15" is the limit in terms of space. 2 x 12" is feasible...
I've got experience with the Altecs, the JBLs and the Focal 15 series... thinking to myself that of the lot the Focals might be the best sounding.
Again, I do not want or need to go below ~50-60Hz. I've got killer subs for that area.
Tonal quality and fidelity are the criteria that I'm concerned with - natural sound - Mingus ought to sound like his bass is in the room... and not sound like someone else's instrument... and of course maximum sensitivity.
Upper bass to die for? Ideas are nice, actual experience is better.
_-_-bear
PS. the JBLs sound ok, but have a kinda dead and non dynamic presentation - and maybe don't reach their sensitivity specs? Maybe they are better than what I just said... but I'd maybe tend toward a K140 or earlier driver... dunno.
A line array is vaguely a possibility, but I worry about the polar response a little bit vs. the horn... what did you have in mind?
Keep in mind that with a line array the quality is exactly equal to that of one single driver (just goes louder and has potentially greater sensitivity), and the cost per driver is then a consideration...
oh yeah, baffle width...
_-_-bear
Keep in mind that with a line array the quality is exactly equal to that of one single driver (just goes louder and has potentially greater sensitivity), and the cost per driver is then a consideration...
oh yeah, baffle width...
_-_-bear
Sorry, I don't have any specific driver in mind, just some calculations:
Bass arrays have to cover min. two thirds of the room height. Driver distance max. 50 cm for 344 Hz (half wavelength). Gives 6 dB plus. Plus 6 dB compared to a point radiator in four meters distance. Minus 6 dB bafflestep. Still 6 dB plus, with a 93 dB sensitivity driver 99 dB. 40 cm driver distance gives a dB more. Finding a twelve-incher with 93 dB sensitivity that goes down to 50 Hz in a reasonably sized sealed enclosure should be easy to find, but isn't.
Bass arrays have to cover min. two thirds of the room height. Driver distance max. 50 cm for 344 Hz (half wavelength). Gives 6 dB plus. Plus 6 dB compared to a point radiator in four meters distance. Minus 6 dB bafflestep. Still 6 dB plus, with a 93 dB sensitivity driver 99 dB. 40 cm driver distance gives a dB more. Finding a twelve-incher with 93 dB sensitivity that goes down to 50 Hz in a reasonably sized sealed enclosure should be easy to find, but isn't.
I read somewhere that for midbass, 12" woofers are more believable, as the smaller, lighter cones are more easily moved. I'm pretty sure it was on this forum, but I've no idea where.
To reply to the above post, Eminence will make batches of custom speakers for most purposes - just give them a set of parameters and off they go.
To reply to the above post, Eminence will make batches of custom speakers for most purposes - just give them a set of parameters and off they go.
..thinking to myself that of the lot the Focals might be the best sounding.
Tonal quality and fidelity are the criteria that I'm concerned with - natural sound - Mingus ought to sound like his bass is in the room... and not sound like someone else's instrument... and of course maximum sensitivity.
That sounds about right.. BUT it does depend on the amplification. The Polyglass woofers with the stronger motors didn't do anything particularly wrong, and did almost everything well. The amplification and the loading tended emphasize one particular quality better, but at the expense of other qualities. Overall *supple* is the word that comes to mind, the newer glass sandwich versions are more detailed (for a given motor), but don't have quite the same quality.
Again though, I'd encourage you to go back and read that post I linked to (..and as expensive as the Supravox field coil is, it's generally less expensive than most, if not all, other field coils of similar size). (..of course only once the AA board is working.)
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A few things here...
a horn is not an option in this system.
the higher the sensitivity the better in terms of matching.
a single driver in 15" is the limit in terms of space. 2 x 12" is feasible...
I've got experience with the Altecs, the JBLs and the Focal 15 series... thinking to myself that of the lot the Focals might be the best sounding.
Again, I do not want or need to go below ~50-60Hz. I've got killer subs for that area.
Tonal quality and fidelity are the criteria that I'm concerned with - natural sound - Mingus ought to sound like his bass is in the room... and not sound like someone else's instrument... and of course maximum sensitivity.
Upper bass to die for? Ideas are nice, actual experience is better.
_-_-bear
PS. the JBLs sound ok, but have a kinda dead and non dynamic presentation - and maybe don't reach their sensitivity specs? Maybe they are better than what I just said... but I'd maybe tend toward a K140 or earlier driver... dunno.
To ask for the best, say you can build any box and then say a horn is not an option is really backwards "bear" Good luck with your compromise
If you like the JBL k140, you might like these:
A150WVL | Kilimanjaro-Series | Wolf von Langa
These are a field coil K145.
I bought a pair to use in my project for AU$3000 inc shipping. Everyone who has seen them has thought them very good value for money.
It is too early for me to give a definitive statement on them, but so far I am very pleased with them. They don't go low (below 40Hz), but are warm and very clear and fast. I also love the tuneability of the driver parameters.
A150WVL | Kilimanjaro-Series | Wolf von Langa
These are a field coil K145.
I bought a pair to use in my project for AU$3000 inc shipping. Everyone who has seen them has thought them very good value for money.
It is too early for me to give a definitive statement on them, but so far I am very pleased with them. They don't go low (below 40Hz), but are warm and very clear and fast. I also love the tuneability of the driver parameters.
A few things here...
a horn is not an option in this system.
the higher the sensitivity the better in terms of matching.
a single driver in 15" is the limit in terms of space. 2 x 12" is feasible...
I've got experience with the Altecs, the JBLs and the Focal 15 series... thinking to myself that of the lot the Focals might be the best sounding.
Again, I do not want or need to go below ~50-60Hz. I've got killer subs for that area.
Tonal quality and fidelity are the criteria that I'm concerned with - natural sound - Mingus ought to sound like his bass is in the room... and not sound like someone else's instrument... and of course maximum sensitivity.
Upper bass to die for? Ideas are nice, actual experience is better.
_-_-bear
PS. the JBLs sound ok, but have a kinda dead and non dynamic presentation - and maybe don't reach their sensitivity specs? Maybe they are better than what I just said... but I'd maybe tend toward a K140 or earlier driver... dunno.
To ask for the best, say you can build any box and then say a horn is not an option is really backwards "bear" Good luck with your compromise
No it is not a good option.
A horn will not readily "time align" in most instances, unless you want the thing sticking out into the listening space by a significant amount, and you can deal with the offset that will be required to prevent shadowing of the HF section. If I had an utterly huge room, I'd give it some consideration, I don't.
Also I have heard few "bass horns" that really sound that good overall, most simply don't get low enough - and few are actually flat in the passband because the mouth size is way too small...
And I also said that this system has a killer subwoofer section, so I am looking for a "filler driver"... ~60Hz - ~250Hz.
shall we go on?
Anyhow, the topic is fairly clear and simple... "direct radiator upper bass drivers - likely 15" & high sensitivity". Ok?
_-_-bear
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Regarding the other suggestions - all appreciated.
The Lambda drivers are doubtless good, but don't quite "scream" being that their sensitivity is mid 90s, and they are designed with the phase plug to "go high" - which I don't need or want. A rolloff starting at 500-1000Hz would actually be desireable!
The older Altec drivers might suffice, but then we have to consider the TAD 1601 as a newer version, and of course the Focal 15 series is also a clone.
As I mentioned, the JBL drivers are of interest, but they tend to sound (to me) a little "dead" and perhaps undynamic. Perhaps this is because they are relatively clean (distortion wise) drivers, but still they come off as a little dead sounding and do not seem to really be high 90's SPL sensitivity despite their claims, more like 96dB SPL/1w.
Fancier drivers that cost beaucoup $$ are not going to get into the mix here. The treasury department will not finance that. Contributions are always appreciated. Although they are of some interest.
I'm giving some additional thought to the multiple driver solution (line array, even if not array'd in a line...).
There seem to be a few Eminence drivers that spec at a true 100dB whose specs don't look too awful... but I am suspicious of their cone formulations/designs - the HF rises look a lot like break up modes...
_-_-bear
The Lambda drivers are doubtless good, but don't quite "scream" being that their sensitivity is mid 90s, and they are designed with the phase plug to "go high" - which I don't need or want. A rolloff starting at 500-1000Hz would actually be desireable!
The older Altec drivers might suffice, but then we have to consider the TAD 1601 as a newer version, and of course the Focal 15 series is also a clone.
As I mentioned, the JBL drivers are of interest, but they tend to sound (to me) a little "dead" and perhaps undynamic. Perhaps this is because they are relatively clean (distortion wise) drivers, but still they come off as a little dead sounding and do not seem to really be high 90's SPL sensitivity despite their claims, more like 96dB SPL/1w.
Fancier drivers that cost beaucoup $$ are not going to get into the mix here. The treasury department will not finance that. Contributions are always appreciated. Although they are of some interest.
I'm giving some additional thought to the multiple driver solution (line array, even if not array'd in a line...).
There seem to be a few Eminence drivers that spec at a true 100dB whose specs don't look too awful... but I am suspicious of their cone formulations/designs - the HF rises look a lot like break up modes...
_-_-bear
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