Bass unit + satellite system

[ginetto61]

Hello to Everyone !

I have read with great interest the 3D on the 3 way system
I like the idea to add a bass unit per side to a good pair of satellite
I intend to cut actively between the bass and the satellite

THE problems is the best crossover frequency between the two unit
I have read everything from 80 to 300 even 500 Hz
Is there a sort of consensus about which audio range to send to the woofer ?
I understand that to make the woofer reproducing the mid band is not the best
But crossing it low, at about 100 Hz, implies a satellite with a very strong woofer ... a 7" unit for low distortion

Thank you very much and kind regards,
gino

 

[el`Ol]

For a sealed enclosure sensitivity directly correlates with lower border frequency and enclosure size, if two of them are fixed the third can't be varied so much.

 

[barackuda]

Hi ginetto61,

its best you write what speakers you have, how low can they go, how low you want to go with the sub etc etc..

I'm sure some guys will help you

danny

 

[Michael Chua]

But crossing it low, at about 100 Hz, implies a satellite with a very strong woofer ... a 7" unit for low distortion

I have no distortion issues with 5" midwoofers. In a sealed box, an F3 of 90-200Hz is common. A HP network is necessary to keep the lower frq away though.

If you are playing loud, it is not uncommon to use 8" or even 10". These are normally high powered, 4-way designs. The old JBL L7 used a 12" woofer below 180Hz, 8" from 180Hz-900Hz, a 5" Midrange from 900Hz-4,000Hz and their titanium tweeter from 4,000Hz onwards.

The older JBL4341 Studio Monitors had 10".

 

[ginetto61]

Hi ginetto61,
its best you write what speakers you have, ....
I'm sure some guys will help you
danny

Hello Danny !
Actually I have already some speakers that I list hereunder:

Dynaudio Recital (original)
Dynaudio MSP 110 (original)
JBL L19 (tweeters replaced with good 1" Sipe domes)
Mission 70 (woofers replaced)
Tannoy DC100 (original)
Behringer 2031 A (original)
Another 3 ways with a peerless 10" woofer and celestion mid and tweeter
Nice sounding by the way
But the quality of the woofer is questionable

Maybe one of this could be used as satellite

how low can they go, how low you want to go with the sub etc etc..

I read that small rooms have problem with low bass
Let's say that the listening room will be about 4x5 meters and 3 meter ceiling
I really do not know that this means limitation in the bass
It is my intention to adopt a 10 maybe even a 12" woofer
I also do not know if a sealed box for box would be better
I think that I would prefer a strong control on the woofer
So a sealed box would be preferable

But as I have said I would like to understand the difference cutting at 100Hz or a 300 even 500 Hz
I looked at the crossover frequencies of some commercial 3 ways, new and old
I see everything
My Recital with a mid dome I think they are cut at about 7-800 Hz
Other with 7" woofer are crossed at 200 Hz
So many different solutions

Thanks and kind regards,
Gino

 

[ginetto61]

I have no distortion issues with 5" midwoofers.

Good evening !
If you mean at 100Hz I think that with a 5" midwoofers the max SPL available with low distortion should not be that much
My feeling is that a 100Hz signal is still a "high energy" signal
A strong 7" woofer should be a better option, maybe

In a sealed box, an F3 of 90-200Hz is common.
A HP network is necessary to keep the lower frq away though.
If you are playing loud, it is not uncommon to use 8" or even 10".
These are normally high powered, 4-way designs.
The old JBL L7 used a 12" woofer below 180Hz, 8" from 180Hz-900Hz, a 5" Midrange from 900Hz-4,000Hz and their titanium tweeter from 4,000Hz onwards.
The older JBL4341 Studio Monitors had 10".

Thank you very much indeed
I would like to stick with a 3 ways because I have a 3 ways active crossover
A lot of well received 3 ways are on the market
I have a small listening room, about 4x5 meter
I could do sithout the very low bass
So I could use a good 10" in each bass unit
Now the problem is that a lot of good commercial 2 ways come with a 4-5" mid woofers
If I place the 10" woofer close to the satellite I could cross it at 300Hz without big problems
The center of emissions of the 2 woofers would be very close
And good 2 ways speakers able to cope with the 300Hz and up range ... well are not that uncommon
But I like very much the idea of separating the bass from the satellite, maybe even with spikes between the two cabinets

Thanks again and kind regards,
gino

 

[Brett]

How many LF units are you talking about? One per channel, or a common unit for both channels?

 

[ginetto61]

How many LF units are you talking about? One per channel, or a common unit for both channels?

Good evening !
This is the only thing I am completely sure
One per channel
The unit bass will serve as a stand for the satellite, with the woofer of the bass unit as close as possible to the satellite
I intend to decouple the satellite with some sort of spikes
This is my reference, so to speak of course ...

http://www.avcat.jp/avnews/2009/aeria20t.jpg

but with just the upper woofer in the bass unit
I like this speaker very much without even listening to it
Very beautiful indeed.

My present and also future listenig room will be medium to small
I do not know if the dimension of the room limits the minimum low frequency
I would prefer control in the bass over power
So a closed bass unit should be better ???

Kind regards,
gino

 

[Michael Chua]

If you mean at 100Hz I think that with a 5" midwoofers the max SPL available with low distortion should not be that much
My feeling is that a 100Hz signal is still a "high energy" signal
A strong 7" woofer should be a better option, maybe

There's nothing wrong with using a 7". I have 2-way monitors with Vifa PL18, Dayton RS180 and Seas ER18 (speaker on right in picture).

With 7", I cross them lower, at 80-90Hz because I prefer to use the midwoofer for the upper bass. If you want better power handling, then cross higher. The penalty is that if too high, the bass will "bleed" into the mids. My max is 250Hz (24dB).

 

[ginetto61]

There's nothing wrong with using a 7".
I have 2-way monitors with Vifa PL18, Dayton RS180 and Seas ER18 (speaker on right in picture).
With 7", I cross them lower, at 80-90Hz because I prefer to use the midwoofer for the upper bass.
If you want better power handling, then cross higher.
The penalty is that if too high, the bass will "bleed" into the mids.
My max is 250Hz (24dB).

First of all my sincere congratulations for your excellent creations
Very beautiful speakers indeed
And i am sure they are also very good sounding
You have answered my fundamental question, with your ... 250 Hz as a max

Excuse, could you elaborate your expression about the risk that the bass will "bleed" into the mids
This point is very important to me
The "border" between the Lows' region and the Mids' region
i think it's a crucial point
Once identified the point separating the two regions I can set it quite precisely with the active crossover with 24dB/octave slopes

Congratulations again for your Works. Very very beautiful indeed.
Thanks and kind regards,
gino

P.S. could you tell me from Left to Right the name of the 3 woofers you have used ?

 

[PeteMcK]

re:'The unit bass will serve as a stand for the satellite, with the woofer of the bass unit as close as possible to the satellite' - then it's not really a satellite + sub system, which is good news, much easier to integrate the units. I'd design it as a standard -3 way system, crossover at ~150Hz (but this depends on the drivers used), if need be using a 1st order slope on the woofer so that BSC can dealt with by a simple level adjustment....

 

[Michael Chua]

First of all my sincere congratulations for your excellent creations
Very beautiful speakers indeed
And i am sure they are also very good sounding
You have answered my fundamental question, with your ... 250 Hz as a max

Thank you for your kind words. Right now, my boxes are still test boxes. I will make proper ones after winter. Its 10-20F (-12C ~ -6C) daytime. Not the time to build speakers.

could you elaborate your expression about the risk that the bass will "bleed" into the mids
This point is very important to me
The "border" between the Lows' region and the Mids' region
i think it's a crucial point
Once identified the point separating the two regions I can set it quite precisely with the active crossover with 24dB/octave slopes

By "Bleed", I mean the bass mixing into the mids. The higher you cross, the more the woofer gets into the mids. I like to keep the lower frq away from the mids so that the vocals remain clear.

I also like to keep a minimum of x10 range for the mids (3 to 3-1/2 oct). If I cross at 300Hz, I try not cross the tweeter below 3K. This way, the woofer and tweeter don't affect the mids so much.

 

[ginetto61]

re:'The unit bass will serve as a stand for the satellite, with the woofer of the bass unit as close as possible to the satellite' -
then it's not really a satellite + sub system, which is good news, much easier to integrate the units.
I'd design it as a standard -3 way system, crossover at ~150Hz (but this depends on the drivers used), if need be using a 1st order slope on the woofer so that BSC can dealt with by a simple level adjustment....

Thank you very much for your kind and valuable reply
I intend to use an active crossover between bass unit and the upper module
The upper module can be any good midi to mini 2 ways and it will be powered with a separate amp
Just for start I feel that estabilishing the crossing point between the two modules is of fundamental importance
Because this value drives the choice for a suitable upper module
I understand you suggest 150Hz
Very good and thank you

Kind regards,
gino

 

[ginetto61]

Thank you for your kind words. Right now, my boxes are still test boxes. I will make proper ones after winter. Its 10-20F (-12C ~ -6C) daytime. Not the time to build speakers.

Good morning !
I am not flattering you. You have really done a great job
I can only see that they are all very beautiful
But I am sure they are also great sounding
I will keep those woofers you mentioned in consideration

By "Bleed", I mean the bass mixing into the mids.
The higher you cross, the more the woofer gets into the mids.
I like to keep the lower frq away from the mids so that the vocals remain clear.
I also like to keep a minimum of x10 range for the mids (3 to 3-1/2 oct).
If I cross at 300Hz, I try not cross the tweeter below 3K.
This way, the woofer and tweeter don't affect the mids so much

As I said this is a fundamental issue
THE issue I would say
I have looked at reviews of very good commercial speakers
The crossing point choice is variable
On the basis of your very helpful advice I am leaning to go down to 150-120 Hz
Good reproduction of the midrange is vital for a satisfying performance
For me an important aspect is the reproduction of the human voice
I think that a 6" or even a 7" woofer is to be considered as a optimum

Thank you so much again for your kind and helpful advice
Kind regards,
gino