Yeah it is a good point. I don't believe any of the three are clipping as far as I can tell although it looks like I got a little too close for comfort on Example 2.
There is a small question about internal clipping within the VST architecture and I have run some tests on this in the past. I think that as long as the end file is below 0dB it should have a negligible effect even if I did internally clip. I picked files that weren't already slammed so that there wouldn't be any unpredictable peak extension - which can certainly happen with maximized/compressed/limited material. But anyway the point is taken and maybe just to be safe I should adjust the original to -6dB.
Signal chain is EAC secure rip from CD>44.1 16-bit>44.1 32-bitfloat>VSTLR24>44.1 32-bit> High Pass Triangular Dither>44.1 16-bit
The other one is simpler.
Vinyl Rip>96k 24-bit>VSTLR50>96kHz 24-bit
Noted and yes I understand that you do real controlled tests. I usually only do private listening tests on myself which I guess is limited but eh it's all I got. And really I don't find much deviation in terms of what I can hear and what the average person does - although I am certainly open to the possibility or I wouldn't have posted this test.
Sorry I only trust half of what I read. And of course this stuff should be repeatable no? I have learned everything I know on this earth through uncontrolled tests - no way around it really as far as I can see. This is what I do everyday when I mix a song or try to do anything with music. I am sorry but I am no scientist I am just some dude who messes with audio a lot. Meanwhile your claim of asymmetrical phase distortions having no audible effect is really not holding up on my end.
As far as I can tell I have the proper latency offset and when I introduce a all pass on one channel of a stereo signal it drastically changes the stereo imaging. This is not that much different than a set of speakers with one speaker out of polarity with the other.
As far as I can tell I have the proper latency offset and when I introduce a all pass on one channel of a stereo signal it drastically changes the stereo imaging. This is not that much different than a set of speakers with one speaker out of polarity with the other.
Anecdotal Asymmetrical Phase Distortion Test
3 examples of the same song. One is untouched, another has had one of the channels run through an LR24 all pass, and another has been convolved through 2 impulse responses. The impulse responses have one of the channels phase shifted 30 degree from 20Hz-20kHz.
zSHARE - Blue Mitchell - Perception A.flac
zSHARE - Blue Mitchell - Perception B.flac
zSHARE - Blue Mitchell - Perception C.flac
3 examples of the same song. One is untouched, another has had one of the channels run through an LR24 all pass, and another has been convolved through 2 impulse responses. The impulse responses have one of the channels phase shifted 30 degree from 20Hz-20kHz.
zSHARE - Blue Mitchell - Perception A.flac
zSHARE - Blue Mitchell - Perception B.flac
zSHARE - Blue Mitchell - Perception C.flac
Well I am not going to concede on this point. This is a very important point in reproduction of sound imo. Most likely the problem can occur with surround sound if people insist on using a cheaper speaker for the rears or sides then that cheaper speaker as a bare minimum should have the same phase characteristics in the crossover or the imaging is going to be off. And this is part of why I can't just trust what I read. A lot of people know a lot about sound reproduction and still get a small detail wrong or overlook something.
Guess I did say I would take requests. So one last example because I am sure this isn't the most interesting thing to compare
. The playing field should be exactly even in these two examples as far as I can tell except for the LR4s phase differences introduced on one example.An externally hosted image should be here but it was not working when we last tested it.
zSHARE - Wale Oyejide - Kaya A.flac
zSHARE - Wale Oyejide - Kaya B.flac
Not at all. I basically thrive off of questioning myself. About a year ago I thought phase linear might be very important *shrugs* Now I am not sure transient response is even audible.
And I know it sounds redundant but man there is so much disinformation out there in the audio game. And like with this I already had the stuff all I needed to do was copy and paste some things so I feel like it would have been lazy for me not to mess around a bit. Anyway it led me to finding something totally unrelated that I can use so I see no problem with a little bit of experimenting and keeping yourself in a bubble. It's not like I actually built a 24th order active circuit though lol.
And I guess when you are trying to get a handle on mixing and controlling sound you are expected to be intimately familiar with the signal chain. Any little swap in the signal flow can lead to new and possibly better results and it does seem almost like an infinite number of combinations at first. But over time you slowly start experimenting systematically with the chain and trying to deduce your own style or whatever. Maybe I am listening to too many perfectionist engineers though.
And I know it sounds redundant but man there is so much disinformation out there in the audio game. And like with this I already had the stuff all I needed to do was copy and paste some things so I feel like it would have been lazy for me not to mess around a bit. Anyway it led me to finding something totally unrelated that I can use so I see no problem with a little bit of experimenting and keeping yourself in a bubble. It's not like I actually built a 24th order active circuit though lol.
And I guess when you are trying to get a handle on mixing and controlling sound you are expected to be intimately familiar with the signal chain. Any little swap in the signal flow can lead to new and possibly better results and it does seem almost like an infinite number of combinations at first. But over time you slowly start experimenting systematically with the chain and trying to deduce your own style or whatever. Maybe I am listening to too many perfectionist engineers though.
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Er whats wrong with "try it for yourself"? I mean in this day and age when you have 64-bit processor free programs etc. It's just my own mission I don't expect it to make sense to you guys really. But I am not confusing the two just experimenting with the 2 a lot. And who knows maybe it is just my way of procrastinating my mixing or whatever but I don't think it's as laborious as it would be to a scientist because I don't have to reproduce anything. See how fast I went through the different orders and came back with a subjective opinion on how high you have to go before it becomes audible? What did that take me like 20 minutes to start at 24th order and get up to 64th? This stuff is nothing more than a few clicks to me.
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And here is the thing, You, Toole, Linkwitz etc.. All human. I think all three of you guys are right about a lot of things. But do I think you might be wrong about some stuff or possibly overlooking some things? Yep. And I would only think it's human to want to hear (or not hear in this case) for yourself whats going on. You see a measurement like my first example and you think "That distortion is huge I am sure my golden ears can pick something out" and you naturally want to try.
I listened to the comparison many times before because of the work I put in developing the Phase Arbitrator.
The difference is small when it comes to low order filters, but it is there. It is more pronounced with right material and it makes very little difference on most material
There are a few variables involved when trying to discern transient perfect reproduction.
First, are you listening to TP reproduction at ANY time during the test? If not, you are comparing two different flavors of phase distortion, which makes the distinction so much harder.
Here is an example for you.
Let's say you are given a set of glasses that is supposed to improve your perception of color on your Plasma TV.
But, it was never matched to correct your particular plasma's shortcomings. Now you are looking at picture that was weak in the red end of spectrum through glasses that correct best in the blue end of spectrum. Your blues were OK to begin with, so the correction doesn't really do much for blues, and the reds are still pretty much the same.
You don't know if you really see a difference.
Second scenario- you are handed glasses that are matched to your plasma, but you chose Lord of the Rings for the test. Half of the things on screen are computer generated, and the whole movie has a specific filter applied to it to give it a surreal feel. You look at it through the glasses, and maybe the reds look slightly different, but there is no improvement in the quality of the picture.
But if you tune in to some high definition nature show on Discovery the glasses might just make a real difference and resolve different shades of feathers on a cardinal just right.
Same goes for phase distortion. If you listen to all pass filter through all pass device such as a multi way loudspeaker- you get two different flavors of phase distortion and no real preference might emerge.
If you listen to phase distortion on good transducers, such as good headphones, but your music material was mixed and mastered using phase mangling processors and artificial ambiance, the additional all pass filter gets buried in the music.
If you have great recording with little processing, through high quality headphones (single transducer) then you might notice much easier that the all pass filter is messing with the sound.
In my case, I correct a three way system with fairly steep crossovers at 500Hz and 5000Hz, and I apply correction to the vented box 360 degree phase shift around 35Hz.
Then I play music with some acoustic drums, hand percussion, acoustic guitars and electric bass guitar, and flip back and fourth.
To me, Transient Perfect reproduction makes the sound more laid back, smoother. The all-pass and high-pass phase behavior of the speakers makes things a bit edgier and more aggressive sounding. But, the effect is most pronounced on material that my brain can relate to from every day sounds. Majority of modern studio productions sound pretty much the same with correction and without.
The difference is small when it comes to low order filters, but it is there. It is more pronounced with right material and it makes very little difference on most material
There are a few variables involved when trying to discern transient perfect reproduction.
First, are you listening to TP reproduction at ANY time during the test? If not, you are comparing two different flavors of phase distortion, which makes the distinction so much harder.
Here is an example for you.
Let's say you are given a set of glasses that is supposed to improve your perception of color on your Plasma TV.
But, it was never matched to correct your particular plasma's shortcomings. Now you are looking at picture that was weak in the red end of spectrum through glasses that correct best in the blue end of spectrum. Your blues were OK to begin with, so the correction doesn't really do much for blues, and the reds are still pretty much the same.
You don't know if you really see a difference.
Second scenario- you are handed glasses that are matched to your plasma, but you chose Lord of the Rings for the test. Half of the things on screen are computer generated, and the whole movie has a specific filter applied to it to give it a surreal feel. You look at it through the glasses, and maybe the reds look slightly different, but there is no improvement in the quality of the picture.
But if you tune in to some high definition nature show on Discovery the glasses might just make a real difference and resolve different shades of feathers on a cardinal just right.
Same goes for phase distortion. If you listen to all pass filter through all pass device such as a multi way loudspeaker- you get two different flavors of phase distortion and no real preference might emerge.
If you listen to phase distortion on good transducers, such as good headphones, but your music material was mixed and mastered using phase mangling processors and artificial ambiance, the additional all pass filter gets buried in the music.
If you have great recording with little processing, through high quality headphones (single transducer) then you might notice much easier that the all pass filter is messing with the sound.
In my case, I correct a three way system with fairly steep crossovers at 500Hz and 5000Hz, and I apply correction to the vented box 360 degree phase shift around 35Hz.
Then I play music with some acoustic drums, hand percussion, acoustic guitars and electric bass guitar, and flip back and fourth.
To me, Transient Perfect reproduction makes the sound more laid back, smoother. The all-pass and high-pass phase behavior of the speakers makes things a bit edgier and more aggressive sounding. But, the effect is most pronounced on material that my brain can relate to from every day sounds. Majority of modern studio productions sound pretty much the same with correction and without.
Good stuff. I have actually done my own recordings but I am a little reluctant to post them I guess. All acoustic guitar, sax, percussion. And I am using a phase offset for my monitors crossover as well. I said earlier I may do some more recordings that I can be sure are at least not heavily manipulated and are somewhat pristine in terms of transient response.
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