Hello all. I am starting this thread upon the completion 
of my current system, consisting of;
Room 3.5m L x 6m W x 2.6m H. with the speakers firing across the shorter length which unfortunately cant be changed = WAF
Marantz CD6002 Cd player
Connected using CHORD COBRA 3 to
Cambridge Audio Azure 640a V2
Chord Carnival Silver Screen BI-wired to
DIY MTM's in a ported 30L enclosure using;
Peerless 850439
Vifa XT25tg30-04
Crossed over at 1700Hz (24dB high/low acoustic LR slopes) with 4dB **
compensation.
So, how do they sound. Great, lots of detail across their usable bandwidth and smooth integration between drivers.
But here's the rub. Everything sounds like its coming from exactly were my equipment sits, right between the speakers. There is almost no stage depth. I have tried moving the speakers a meter in every direction (except up and down), have leveled them and adjusted varying degrees of toe in to no avail. I have tried x-overs between 1700 and 2600 with no change to stage depth.
I have a few questions but would appreciate any input on the matter.
1. I cant at this point make any measurements of the speakers so could this be a product of poor phase response? Do i need to take the leap into measurement land and if so what would be the easiest place to start?
2. Are my Amp and Cd player known for poor performance in this area, will stage depth improve with some of the easier mods listed on this forum?
Hope this was worth the read and cheers again all.
Dean
of my current system, consisting of;Room 3.5m L x 6m W x 2.6m H. with the speakers firing across the shorter length which unfortunately cant be changed = WAF
Marantz CD6002 Cd player
Connected using CHORD COBRA 3 to
Cambridge Audio Azure 640a V2
Chord Carnival Silver Screen BI-wired to
DIY MTM's in a ported 30L enclosure using;
Peerless 850439
Vifa XT25tg30-04
Crossed over at 1700Hz (24dB high/low acoustic LR slopes) with 4dB **
compensation. So, how do they sound. Great, lots of detail across their usable bandwidth and smooth integration between drivers.
But here's the rub. Everything sounds like its coming from exactly were my equipment sits, right between the speakers. There is almost no stage depth. I have tried moving the speakers a meter in every direction (except up and down), have leveled them and adjusted varying degrees of toe in to no avail. I have tried x-overs between 1700 and 2600 with no change to stage depth.
I have a few questions but would appreciate any input on the matter.
1. I cant at this point make any measurements of the speakers so could this be a product of poor phase response? Do i need to take the leap into measurement land and if so what would be the easiest place to start?
2. Are my Amp and Cd player known for poor performance in this area, will stage depth improve with some of the easier mods listed on this forum?
Hope this was worth the read and cheers again all.
Dean
Attachments
If you are unable to measure the speakers, well let's hope each are the same?
anyways, first guess would be layout. When the wife is not home for a few hours, try it the other way and see if the depth factor changes.
room treatment (lack of)
speakers too close to the wall behind it? ( a variation on layout really)
forget electronics as the cause (my opinion of course)
anyways, first guess would be layout. When the wife is not home for a few hours, try it the other way and see if the depth factor changes.
room treatment (lack of)
speakers too close to the wall behind it? ( a variation on layout really)
forget electronics as the cause (my opinion of course)
I'd wager its the listening position that needs to move. You're sitting right on the wall there gathering up all those reflections. Also the room dimensions are so small that flutter echos are going to be rampant (racquetball anyone?). Also you have a large pane of glass there that, even with the curtains drawn is probably going to introduce some asymmetry which, ordinarily I wouldnt get that hung up on but in your situation you're listening to that wall as much as you are the speakers. Additionally the wall being that close gives the reflection a very short delay which probably smears things a bit. I doubt you can cure these ills completely with deadening the room but its worth a shot. I'd focus on the area behind your head and the opposite wall of course but you may find the ceiling gives good results too (a tapestry and the ceiling is usually more popular domestically too.
I could say the excact same, and some more
But I would rather say what I think could be a solution
Convert to 2.5way with 6/12db/12db, top driver the 0.5way woofer
If you want to try I will tell you why
If not, just ignore
btw, have you tried to play with phase
Could be just the tweeter
Or simple reverse speaker wires on amp
Also, some of your electronics may be sensitive to phase on mains connect
Try to reverse the mains connectors, one at a time
And mark them carefully
But be careful if you use biwire, not to make a shorting, and power off on amp please
But I would rather say what I think could be a solution
Convert to 2.5way with 6/12db/12db, top driver the 0.5way woofer
If you want to try I will tell you why
If not, just ignore
btw, have you tried to play with phase
Could be just the tweeter
Or simple reverse speaker wires on amp
Also, some of your electronics may be sensitive to phase on mains connect
Try to reverse the mains connectors, one at a time
And mark them carefully
But be careful if you use biwire, not to make a shorting, and power off on amp please
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Ok, so i tried bringing the seat forward incrementally, it does sound better but I having had this system in another room running long ways which also had poor depth results. I guess im looking at the electrical side because the depth info doesn't seem to be being created by the system.
Putting aside room effects (foolish perhaps), has anybody had positive results using any or this equipment in regards to stage depth.
Remember also that that these x-overs are not optimized in any way, surely this could account for stage depth or lack there of?
Cheers
Dean
Putting aside room effects (foolish perhaps), has anybody had positive results using any or this equipment in regards to stage depth.
Remember also that that these x-overs are not optimized in any way, surely this could account for stage depth or lack there of?
Cheers
Dean
You need uniform polar response and good spacing to the front wall (4' is a start and more is better) to get good sound stage depth. Suppressed side-wall and ceiling reflections through directivity and placement help. Listener placement with respect to walls is important too with 4-5' being a starting point with more better. Otherwise the thing you're picking up from your environment are going to take precedences over what was recorded.
Soffit mounted/in-wall speakers don't seem to image depth.
The recording needs to have it too. Recordings which have been spliced together from performers and their instruments eating the micro-phones shouldn't have depth.
Listen to Take Five, especially drum kit and bass. You know which microphones were farthest and closest.
The drum microphone is 5' off the ground. The bass mic is a foot off the bridge behind a gobo.
It's the speakers and placement.
Play with a length-wise placement that gets you and the speakers away from the wall behind when your wife isn't home.
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Hey tin, I have tried reversing the tweeters but the sound lost allot of life around what i am assuming was the XO frequency.
I am interested in anything at this point and have biwired the system so i can adjust the hi/lo xo's independently. I have also used external XO's for ease of tweaking.
Would love to hear some suggestions on your 2.5 way idea. Does this work well with a D'Appolite (excuse spelling) configuration?
Cheers
Dean
I am interested in anything at this point and have biwired the system so i can adjust the hi/lo xo's independently. I have also used external XO's for ease of tweaking.
Would love to hear some suggestions on your 2.5 way idea. Does this work well with a D'Appolite (excuse spelling) configuration?
Cheers
Dean
Hey Drew... Downloading Take 5 now and will use this as a group reference for the rest of this discussion, do you recommend any album?
As you can see from the photo if i turn the system lengthwise the speakers or my chair will block the entry/exit at each end of the room. This doesn't bother me, but my opinion is null and void at that point anyway lol.
Will post after i have moved the speakers further into the room and listened to take five. Should i keep an even triangle distance ratio between myself and speaker to speaker?
Cheers
Dean
As you can see from the photo if i turn the system lengthwise the speakers or my chair will block the entry/exit at each end of the room. This doesn't bother me, but my opinion is null and void at that point anyway lol.
Will post after i have moved the speakers further into the room and listened to take five. Should i keep an even triangle distance ratio between myself and speaker to speaker?
Cheers
Dean
for all we know, your particular pair of speakers may NEVER have 'depth'! (ie, have you heard them in other situations where they did have depth?.not every speaker does each aspect the same)
Buy a fifty dollar bag of ceiling insulation, and start throwing batts around and see what happens. Cheap experiment, and use the insulation in your ceiling when you're done.
downloading?? you mean mp3? remember you can only get depth if it is on the recording....so it might be a dud experiment or one destined to not show the thing you are looking for.
Buy a fifty dollar bag of ceiling insulation, and start throwing batts around and see what happens. Cheap experiment, and use the insulation in your ceiling when you're done.
downloading?? you mean mp3? remember you can only get depth if it is on the recording....so it might be a dud experiment or one destined to not show the thing you are looking for.
Take Five is a _classic_ jazz album from the Dave Brubeck quartet. The jazz is great and It's noted for the unique time signatures, although limited processing makes it interesting for listening to speakers.
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Thelonious Monk _Straight no Chaser_ and Miles Davis _Kind of Blue_ would be other Jazz examples every one should have heard. Missing them is like never having heard Sgt. Pepper, Beethoven's 9th Sympthony, or Bach's cello suites.
Before you burn those cabs for firewood try to find a friend that has some small bookshelf speakers that you think image better than yours and get him to loan them to you. That could tell you a lot about whats going on and would be a lot quicker (and less itchy) than messing with that insulation.
Try moving your chair away from the wall a bit, closing the drapes behind you (maybe get some heavier ones to better damp out the reflection), and close the drapes between the speakers, perhaps get some there which reach further down. You might be getting a funky bounce from that table to the right of the chair, too. Try moving that out of the room to see whether your imaging gets any better.
I'm a DSP guy, but I'm also a lazy DSP guy. Why crank out a room correction curve if it can be fixed by moving some furniture around?
I'm a DSP guy, but I'm also a lazy DSP guy. Why crank out a room correction curve if it can be fixed by moving some furniture around?
Right.
Physics, Feng Shui, and domestic bliss aren't always in harmony.
The equilateral triangle is a starting point which should produce a wide sound stage without a hole in the middle, although you're making trade-offs with intensity and magnitude of side-wall reflections.
It's a fine starting point, but allowing 2-3 feet of sidewall clearance is more important.
On listener to speaker distance you only need enough for the drivers to integrate properly.
Have fun.
It would make it a NOT dappolito
I dont like to say it, but it looks like your "listening height" is in the middle of low midwoofer
Excuse me if Im wrong
But please, try to reverse total phase, BEFORE xover
And try to reverse your mains connectors, like I suggested
One by one
If just one is with wrong phase, it will all be wrong
ALL should be correct
One reason why I may prefer electronics with a single supply, or common
I have very fine sound, but I can tell you, it only works when everything is connected 100% correct
If I disconnect it to move it, it sound like hell when connected again, it really does
It takes time connect it all correctly, and it takes some time to settle after that
I can actually notice small changes during the year, due to temperature, humidity, etc
But you can achieve what you ask fore in two ways
By cheating, or the very difficult correct way
With cheating, you get more diffuse sound
Done right, you get excactly what you have, and the undefined airyness that makes the precise sound alive
Its by far not easy at all
But remember, soundstage is really also cheating
There is no soundstage when musicians are being recorded in studio
Soundstage doesnt really matter
Its the SOUND you need to focus on
It could be narrowed down to "ringing", or lack lack of
Too dry is too much to one side, and too lively sound too much of the other side
Its a matter of getting a balance between the two
And it could easily end up being room acoustics
I deal with it through xover
But with those windows you should not have very dry sound
Man, these things really can be tricky
But to be honest, I dont listen "that way" any more, and I think its a faked illusion
I just want music to sound "right"
But that could be even more tricky
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