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Multi-Way Conventional loudspeakers with crossovers

Stage Depth?!? And why i have none!?!
Stage Depth?!? And why i have none!?!
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Old 7th December 2009, 02:42 AM   #21
planet10 is online now planet10  Canada
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Stage Depth?!? And why i have none!?!
Quote:
Originally Posted by Drew Eckhardt View Post
Suppressed side-wall ... reflections
Toole's research shows that side wall reflections are beneficial for soundstage & image envelopment.

In this case with the speaker placement, the walls are too far away anyway.

Stage depth needs to be on the albumn to start with. Then the system needs to preserve phase information and subtle detail way down into the signal.

Do you have a mechanics stethescope? Take one and listen to all of your cabinet walls to see what they are emitting sound wise.

Tinitus idea is also very good... hopefully will allow you to push up and simplify the XO to make it less noticiable.

dave
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Old 7th December 2009, 02:46 AM   #22
thunk303 is offline thunk303  Australia
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Thank you all for the input.

At this point I need to continue working within the limitations of my current system/room configuration (read WAF limit).

When i download (rarely) its nearly always WAV or FLAC at worst that has been verified as a rip from an original CD. Failing that it goes on my to buy shortlist.

I do have an original Kind of Blue CD so will use that as ref for the time being but have played it to death

These speakers do seem to obey the equilateral triangle rule fairly closely and generally sound better proportioned with only 2/3% of toe-in.

I will try reversing both high/low phase (all drivers still in phase) and report back.
I have no experience with changing mains phase so would appreciate any input on how that may be done (ALL OFF at switch box of course)

Cheers guys
Dean
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Old 7th December 2009, 03:00 AM   #23
thunk303 is offline thunk303  Australia
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At the moment my right speaker is 1200mm from the nearest wall whilst the left is almost 3m away.

I have never used a mechanics stethescope, are they like a doctors? Do you have a link to an example?

The cabs are 32mm MDF with reasonable internal bracing and Automotive deadening (Bitumen) an all internal surfaces at about 3mm thick. I then have 30mm thick open-cell acoustic foam on all sides except the front panel and 10mm thick teased dacron behind the drivers and rolled up to an 80mm thick pad in the bottom of the cab on top of the 30mmm foam for the primary standing wave.

Tap test = pretty good

Of the 100 odd Cd's I have listened too the stage depth seems to change very little.

I will start the hunt for a small set of monitors to borrow for ref..

Cheers
Dean
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Old 7th December 2009, 03:05 AM   #24
tinitus is offline tinitus  Europe
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Stage Depth?!? And why i have none!?!
Quote:
Originally Posted by thunk303 View Post

I will try reversing both high/low phase (all drivers still in phase) and report back.
I have no experience with changing mains phase so would appreciate any input on how that may be done (ALL OFF at switch box of course)

Cheers guys
Dean
And try reversed phase on amps

Mains phase on mains connection, on each electronic component is done simply by turning the connector
Unless you use 3-legs connectors, then its complicated

Biwire
Its not doing you any good
Why
All drivers have a common "ground" connection
And xover also have some interaction
Think of "ground" in any amp
Noone would dream of having "ground" placed 5 feet away from amp
If you insist on this kind of thing, best place your xover close to amp with a single short connection
Then you will have natural biwire between drivers and xover
And very thick wires, I would avoid that too
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Old 7th December 2009, 03:12 AM   #25
Key is offline Key  United States
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Hmm not much to say that hasn't already been said. You said LR4 acoustic slope so does that mean you are using a lower order and combining it with the driver to get LR4 effectively? I think I would tweak the crossover.

Maybe try moving in closer than an equilateral triangle with them toed in.

Electric Ladyland - Jimi Hendrix Experience is a great studio album that manipulates stage depth a lot. Not as holistic as a jazz recording but I find it's easier to judge a speakers capabilities with sounds that move in depth and aren't stationary. Stockhausen was the first to do a lot of stuff like this and I like to use his stuff to test out systems imaging but it's not for everyone - it's like listening to test tones on drugs.
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Old 7th December 2009, 03:14 AM   #26
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If you are trying to get him to find the absolute polarity of his system tinitus I think you are leading him down the wrong road. Definitely make sure both speakers are in proper phase relationship though. But absolute polarity makes no difference in stage depth.
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Old 7th December 2009, 03:24 AM   #27
thunk303 is offline thunk303  Australia
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I am in Australia so most of our equipment uses 3 pin IEC connections.

I have 2 x 1.5m of cable running from speakers A + B on each side to XO box (seperate Hi/Low) then 1 foot of cable from box to speaker terminals. This was only done for ease of XO mods and not SQ reasons. I will try removing 1 of the primary runs and join Hi/low input at XO box and report back

The XO's are 12dB elec low and 18dB elec high combined with the drivers to achieve 24dB hi/low @ 1700Hz

Dean
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Old 7th December 2009, 03:48 AM   #28
thunk303 is offline thunk303  Australia
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So far nobody has mentioned any gains from moding my CD/AMP. Perhaps better caps etc.

Would there likely be any improvement in stage depth following this path? Or am i dealing solely with loudspeaker issue's?

Dean
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Old 7th December 2009, 04:04 AM   #29
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Most likely the speakers or the height of the speakers in relation to your ears. The more you get them off the wall and the more the two speakers match the better the phantom center will be. Like others have said you want a wide polar response that is somewhat matched in the crossover region. You might be getting a huge jump in the polar response from the mids to the tweeter.

There was someone on another forum who swore that you get the best imaging when you sit right up against a wall like you are doing. I have never tried it so I can't really say but I usually like to sit away from boundaries.
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Old 7th December 2009, 06:09 AM   #30
"Q" is offline "Q"  United States
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So Dean, is this like a lack of super fantastic imaging? Or is more like "I think my speakers are broken" lack of imaging? Is this your first DIY set of speakers? What other speakers have you owned and how did they compare to these?

Just trying to get a better idea of what's going on here.

I must say......I am intrigued.
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Last edited by "Q"; 7th December 2009 at 06:14 AM.
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