To trust into our ears...the main problem may be there
hearing is what your ears capture and result analised by the brain, and then goes to conscience and you translate that in words and ideas.
In my imagination we cannot let the brain analise, as it can modify the judgment because of several reasons.
Ear, by itself, can be wonderfull if we do it controled...so... we should be rid of "how amplifier looks"..... "how it cost".... "how famous it is".... "how popular it is".
So, we do blind testing... not watching, not having evaluations (prejudice) you can be more precise.
Just listening, a fast switching from A to B.... not knowing what is A and what is B...same power, same volume, same music, almost the same musical moment, various styles of music...then we may be able to "avoid" the brain intervenction into the "judgement department"...just perception.
I think we can trust into our ears, seems they are almost the same for all of us..to capture sound pressure, to transform in electro chemical energy that will be sent to the brain and listened.... the trouble is when we gave time to be "processed"...analised...so..our beliefs will enter and may disturb our judgement.
I am absolutelly unable to evaluate using memory.... audio memory (quality) not possible by me...so, i use to make them control whole stuff to me... this let's me concentrate into the earing task (others, operators, friends, or automatic switching using flip flop circuit and relay) this way i cannot know what is playing ... and also i will be able to listen almost the same musical moment having A playing and B playing.
Well... even not accepting Curly ideas, i have to respect the man...he has a lot of courage...... maybe he is talking about ears...not the entire human system processing...if he is saying he is able to block our human "fooling ya" system..then he may be rigth.
We need to concentrate...it is another way to do those things..for instance, i cannot sing any music, i do not even know what the singer is singing...what he is saying, as usually i am concentrated into the sound quality, not what the singer is saying... so...there are multiple levels of attention...i think to understand what the guy is singing is using more brain..then you evaluate a lot of other things, includding if you like what he is saying or not... evaluating listening this way, may have other influences then the sonics by itself.
So, i may say that i can hear in a very interesting way, and also i can imagine a lot can do that way, but several guys does not hear this way.... also i may say that i can trust my ears are focused in such a way that may help me to compare and evaluate, reducing a little the possibility to fool myself.
regards,
Carlos
hearing is what your ears capture and result analised by the brain, and then goes to conscience and you translate that in words and ideas.
In my imagination we cannot let the brain analise, as it can modify the judgment because of several reasons.
Ear, by itself, can be wonderfull if we do it controled...so... we should be rid of "how amplifier looks"..... "how it cost".... "how famous it is".... "how popular it is".
So, we do blind testing... not watching, not having evaluations (prejudice) you can be more precise.
Just listening, a fast switching from A to B.... not knowing what is A and what is B...same power, same volume, same music, almost the same musical moment, various styles of music...then we may be able to "avoid" the brain intervenction into the "judgement department"...just perception.
I think we can trust into our ears, seems they are almost the same for all of us..to capture sound pressure, to transform in electro chemical energy that will be sent to the brain and listened.... the trouble is when we gave time to be "processed"...analised...so..our beliefs will enter and may disturb our judgement.
I am absolutelly unable to evaluate using memory.... audio memory (quality) not possible by me...so, i use to make them control whole stuff to me... this let's me concentrate into the earing task (others, operators, friends, or automatic switching using flip flop circuit and relay) this way i cannot know what is playing ... and also i will be able to listen almost the same musical moment having A playing and B playing.
Well... even not accepting Curly ideas, i have to respect the man...he has a lot of courage...... maybe he is talking about ears...not the entire human system processing...if he is saying he is able to block our human "fooling ya" system..then he may be rigth.
We need to concentrate...it is another way to do those things..for instance, i cannot sing any music, i do not even know what the singer is singing...what he is saying, as usually i am concentrated into the sound quality, not what the singer is saying... so...there are multiple levels of attention...i think to understand what the guy is singing is using more brain..then you evaluate a lot of other things, includding if you like what he is saying or not... evaluating listening this way, may have other influences then the sonics by itself.
So, i may say that i can hear in a very interesting way, and also i can imagine a lot can do that way, but several guys does not hear this way.... also i may say that i can trust my ears are focused in such a way that may help me to compare and evaluate, reducing a little the possibility to fool myself.
regards,
Carlos
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I have nad customers that were intimately familiar with one our "main systems" come in to the store and be listening during a demo and pull me aside and ask me a simply question. What is different about this system. It was nothing more than we had to change out the cabling due to a customer had borrowed what ever "reference" we would normally use for that system. I guess they were "brainwashed" too?
What ever you arguments the fact remains that people can hear regardless. What ever my "oversights" are in my comments that do not adhere to many of your understandings, I have seen this over and over again in 20 years. How could these people be deaf? They were just intimately familiar with our systems as they regularly cam in to listen?
I can't imagine how anyone can define anything in an instant A/B type situation. We listened over a period of time and changed back to known references for another week so that throughout a day of listening, over the period of a week, typically, we could get the overall feel of what any cable changes has brought to a particular system. This about as scientific as I think is responsible and then it was group decision as to whether the changes to the system were good or bad. I use the same tesying procedures myself in my own system and have for years. It works for me and others that I know of. If this does not fit into your box of sound thinking, I have no further argument. It is valid in my eyes, ears and brain.
What ever you arguments the fact remains that people can hear regardless. What ever my "oversights" are in my comments that do not adhere to many of your understandings, I have seen this over and over again in 20 years. How could these people be deaf? They were just intimately familiar with our systems as they regularly cam in to listen?
I can't imagine how anyone can define anything in an instant A/B type situation. We listened over a period of time and changed back to known references for another week so that throughout a day of listening, over the period of a week, typically, we could get the overall feel of what any cable changes has brought to a particular system. This about as scientific as I think is responsible and then it was group decision as to whether the changes to the system were good or bad. I use the same tesying procedures myself in my own system and have for years. It works for me and others that I know of. If this does not fit into your box of sound thinking, I have no further argument. It is valid in my eyes, ears and brain.
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Mr Michael Martin..with all the respect you deserve, i want to remember you something
I think you deserve all my attention and respect, you have courage.. a very strong man...i do not agree with more than 40 percent about your ideas, not even love you too much..but i have respect when i see someone strong with courage to face the "brains" we have in this forum.
Take a moment and read (listening) the text...some people read already searching for counter arguments... some does not even understand (really) what the other one mean... so... please, first try to understand in a humble way.
- " When customer go to your store, or the place you work..you're the man there...you was selected for that..skilled to do that.. approved to do that work..so..there's a relationship of respect... there, you're the boss, the man.... people is educated to respect that..education, kind manner is used. When customer goes to listen his own equipment, or something they already know, they may use other speakers, will be listening another room acoustics and they are prepared, in advance, by you, to perceive something different..so..the king's new clothing tale will enter the relationship dinamics...he will feel stupid if he does not perceive something different...your personality, your strong personality dominating the relationship and persuading them to feel something different. This does not resist to a blind A to B fair comparison without persuadors, intimidators, people with power to convince, experts or something. "
There are people with strong personality ... some folks understand that or call that stubbornness..it seems you are very strong...about that "stub"...well..i do not even know if this word is correct, i found into google translator (teimosia)
The video bellow shows an A to B and to C blind testing...made in a very reasonable way...i do not know if they have use decibel meter to equalize levels..just that i do not know...also if they have made A to B to C or A to B with the alive, non microphone, performance.
regards,
Carlos
I think you deserve all my attention and respect, you have courage.. a very strong man...i do not agree with more than 40 percent about your ideas, not even love you too much..but i have respect when i see someone strong with courage to face the "brains" we have in this forum.
Take a moment and read (listening) the text...some people read already searching for counter arguments... some does not even understand (really) what the other one mean... so... please, first try to understand in a humble way.
- " When customer go to your store, or the place you work..you're the man there...you was selected for that..skilled to do that.. approved to do that work..so..there's a relationship of respect... there, you're the boss, the man.... people is educated to respect that..education, kind manner is used. When customer goes to listen his own equipment, or something they already know, they may use other speakers, will be listening another room acoustics and they are prepared, in advance, by you, to perceive something different..so..the king's new clothing tale will enter the relationship dinamics...he will feel stupid if he does not perceive something different...your personality, your strong personality dominating the relationship and persuading them to feel something different. This does not resist to a blind A to B fair comparison without persuadors, intimidators, people with power to convince, experts or something. "
There are people with strong personality ... some folks understand that or call that stubbornness..it seems you are very strong...about that "stub"...well..i do not even know if this word is correct, i found into google translator (teimosia)
The video bellow shows an A to B and to C blind testing...made in a very reasonable way...i do not know if they have use decibel meter to equalize levels..just that i do not know...also if they have made A to B to C or A to B with the alive, non microphone, performance.
regards,
Carlos
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I never said these figures showed the reason people preferred high-end cables.
Be careful when you quote me...
I think these quotes are why someone might get the impression that you were relating your measurements to audibility.
Hi Passion,
A bit late, but I just have to comment on your cable tests and reporting of the numbers.
No one in a technical field uses the decibel scale to compare differences in errors. The differences are always measured in relation to the input signal (in this case). Attempting to relate errors to each other greatly exaggerates that difference. Your actual numbers may be fine, but the reporting is entirely useless. Is this an attempt to prove the differences are easily audible?
The differences you hear may be perfectly audible to you, but presenting evidence this way runs the risk of diverting the attention away from the actual cause(s) for this.
On the plus side, you've done some experiments with great care in order to show these tiny differences. What is your error budget for your setup?
Hi Curly Woods,
This statement tells me that you are only here to push your point of view. You are unwilling to consider any other position, and yet you ask the same from all of us. I must say that you are assuming a lot of everyone, rather unfairly I must say.
I do not know anyone who does not listen to the music. In fact, the people who don't understand electronics or know much about audio can be excellent judges of quality. They just know what they like or don't like. That's as simple as it gets. I know because I spent many years dealing with the public as an audio salesman, then a few decades dealing with them when things weren't working properly. These people do know what they are hearing, and 99% do not hear any difference between interconnects. That's probably because they have good equipment that is set up well. Not a single "passive preamp" among them.
Just because he, and many others don't agree with you is no reason to act like this. Try looking at you from another person's perspective for a change.
That's cool. Then you have selected what works best in your exact situation. You can not take this data and extrapolate to anyone else's system though. Other than that, fair enough.
That is an ill-defined term I think. Most people here listen carefully, but also own test equipment. I can tell you that if I hear something I don't like, I wish to "fix it", much like any other technical person. I am lucky in that I can usually find what bothers me and actually measure it. You seem to have a problem with SY as well. I can tell you from personal observation that he listens carefully. And yet SY has some equipment as well.
I think you take an extremist view, and that will clash with any moderate around here. It's almost like any involvement from any test equipment is a sin that calls for excommunication from your church of sonic heaven.
This statement is not exactly true in effect. From one salesperson to another, you know full well that many customers come in looking at you as the expert. It's your job to select and match a system that will provide quality reproduction for many years. That means that all you need do is suggest something, and that is just as good as twisting their arm. This is what sales is all about. Sell yourself, then sell what you want. Accessories is the only item that offers a good markup, so you sell accessories. Stands, wire, speaker wire, tape (?) and cleaning supplies. You sell it all, if not, you are a poor salesman and can expect a talk from your manager.
As long as no consideration is given to the other argument, yes. As I have stated, most people accept a balance. It's an extreme view that will run into trouble. Extreme in either direction.
Well, thank you for your support. For one, we try to allow the adults look after themselves. Their are no hall monitors here. We are forced to step in once things get out of hand. Now, the "constant innuendo" you are talking about has two sides. Essentially you are talking about two sides to an argument. No one has complained that your constant harping of what constitutes the truth for you appearing in most the threads you participate in. So, look at your complaint again. Every time you post, consider that many other people may consider what you are saying as "constant innuendo" the other way.
You just insulted almost everyone here. Perhaps there is an improper connection between how you hear and how it is proved? I'm just looking at your argument the other way around.
So is almost everyone else here. The only difference is that many of us do understand what certain measurements represent about sound quality. That is something you should investigate. All data should be good to you, considering the lengths you are going to reach your answer. Excluding repeatable tests or experiments will not help you get to where you want to go. What you may want to do is investigate audio measurements to see how it compared to what you hear. You can rent that equipment, you don't have to buy it like many of us have. Run your own tests.
You make the claim, you must be able to defend it. This is especially true if what you are claiming is in opposition to the accepted state of the art. It is that simple.
This is a clear example of what you say that is not supported through controlled experiments. Believing this requires a suspension of the laws of physics. The human hearing mechanism is not designed to differentiate between loudness differentials of those magnitudes. Any audiologist can tell you that, these people specialize specifically on what you can and can not hear. They test people every single day. Yes, I have had those tests more than once in the last three years.
This is my point. You are in disagreement with just about everyone and you have continually stated that your views will not change. You are not looking for answers, you are trying to browbeat other people to agree with your viewpoint. Much like a Missionary, you are right and it's up to you to bring the truth to the poor ignorant masses.
This is exactly the reason why you think the way you do. The truth will never be told at sales events (been there myself), the truth interferes with sales. My own long experience has illustrated that salespeople are generally the most confused lot of them all. Consider that most of the info you get was from "white papers" (sales mumbo jumbo masquerading as technical truth), sales material and the magazines sold in most high end stores. Sales people were always the most difficult to deal with when it came to warranty issues and what their understanding of how things worked.
Many have. I told you this before.
I wish he did, but this is not the case. The numbers he was talking about are inaudible, so maybe there is something else at play here.
More importantly and stunningly basic to his testing is that he does not know what his margins of error are. In fact, it is possible the differences are swamped by the uncertainty of the test. In other words, the noise may exceed the measured difference! That would render the test useless, and misleading.
-Chris
Clearly, you have no idea what you are talking about. The instrument was meticulously calibrated, and I know exactly what the margins of error are. Insulting, really.
Hi,
Tried Gore-Tex* yet?
Cheers,
*Expensive, I know.
Very good if your cables suffer from leakage!
Seriously though, polyethylene is good as is 'triguard' paper in ribbon-form wound with overlap. [It is also expensive and difficult to source.]
Do one have to understand the math to understand the article, I don't think so. Of course the reason why I believe him is because his explanations are in line with various listening tests that I have done long before I've read his article.
Funny again, you belief the story of a nameless somebody quoted in the Audio Critic of all places but discard the contents of a paper written by a very known somebody and "only published in a HiFi mag". Is that because it supports your beliefs? What are your beliefs based on, your own tests or some distorted Audio Critic views?
Unfortunately the ears are all that matter in quality audio, no amount of measurements can tell you what a system will sound like, only after you are satisfied with the measurements the real measuring can begin.
What concerns me about measurement is ....
.... do we know enough about cable ( 'cable' being the finished item, including the signal conductor AND the dielectric ) behavior in audio applications to be certain that the measurements which we use are in fact capable of giving us enough knowledge upon which to base a subjectively optimum design.
I accept that all cables act as a media along which electrical forces flow from one link to another in the audio chain. Naturally these electrical forces can only follow the underlying laws of electricity flow and measurement of, say, capacitance can avoid some of the mistakes of the past.
However when the electrical signal is an audio signal there may well be properties of that signal - in terms of its audio qualities - of which the designer - or indeed anyone else - has no concept whatsoever but which have an effect on those odd qualities of soundstage, focus or tone of individual aural components in that soundfield, etc! [To find SY suggesting that such qualities are subjectively tested is indeed surprising] We must also be aware that these cables are in fact shaping the aural quality of the sound when it emerges from the speakers!
I believe that at this time we have too little knowledge and understanding of that knowledge to be able to accurately judge what happens from an audio viewpoint to the signal as it passes along a cable. It will only be as the result of very detailed measurement and record keeping of all known factors that a basis for a breakthrough in understanding will occur.
Until such a major breakthrough produces a new generation of cables which have totally predictable sound quality we can only rely on (very) subjective testing of a variety of cables it in our own system and find which cable best answers our individual needs.
.... do we know enough about cable ( 'cable' being the finished item, including the signal conductor AND the dielectric ) behavior in audio applications to be certain that the measurements which we use are in fact capable of giving us enough knowledge upon which to base a subjectively optimum design.
I accept that all cables act as a media along which electrical forces flow from one link to another in the audio chain. Naturally these electrical forces can only follow the underlying laws of electricity flow and measurement of, say, capacitance can avoid some of the mistakes of the past.
However when the electrical signal is an audio signal there may well be properties of that signal - in terms of its audio qualities - of which the designer - or indeed anyone else - has no concept whatsoever but which have an effect on those odd qualities of soundstage, focus or tone of individual aural components in that soundfield, etc! [To find SY suggesting that such qualities are subjectively tested is indeed surprising] We must also be aware that these cables are in fact shaping the aural quality of the sound when it emerges from the speakers!
I believe that at this time we have too little knowledge and understanding of that knowledge to be able to accurately judge what happens from an audio viewpoint to the signal as it passes along a cable. It will only be as the result of very detailed measurement and record keeping of all known factors that a basis for a breakthrough in understanding will occur.
Until such a major breakthrough produces a new generation of cables which have totally predictable sound quality we can only rely on (very) subjective testing of a variety of cables it in our own system and find which cable best answers our individual needs.
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SY,
With regards to inferences, try reading yours and many others quotes in these forums when the subject comes up about the audiblity of differences. It will likely be eye opening. Anyone that states that they hear differences in many of these forums, are ridiculed, made fun of and or made to feel inferior for even the mention.
You as a moderator, by making many of these same statements, incite a "pack mentality", as people look to you and the other moderators for guidance as to what is acceptable and what is not.
First thank you for your post to me. I am a strong man Destroyer. Here in Texas we have a saying "Stand for something or else something will stand on you".
I am 52 and I have lived a lot of life. My life is a sum of my experiences and I hope that they have taught me well. I seem to be doing OK today. I am not sure what tomorrow will bring, but today I sleep with peace.
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If you are the pilot when I board a plane, what choice do I have? I hope that the airlines have checked your credentials first
And that comment is not a slap in the face of a fellow member here? Is this what you call decorum?
I completely concur Brianco. I would really like to know why though, so we could move on to the next steps in bring us all closer to what real live unamplified music truly sounds like, into our homes.
You really thing there is 'unknowns' still about cables? I might be mistaken but I think they solved all the properties of an electrical current a LONG time ago.
btw, Is it me or does this thread jump back and forth from speaker wire to Interconnects? Are we discussion Interconnects alone?
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