I don't believe cables make a difference, any input?

[SY]

Originally posted by soongsc
Burn-in is actually a very standard term used in electronics equipment.

Not in the hifi sense, no; as with many other bits of actual technical jargon, the high end community has adopted a term and given it a peculiar colloquial meaning.

There IS a real engineering term called "burn-in," and it does relate to having equipment turned on, but it's a reliability process (see "bathtub curve" and "mtbf"). Modems don't follow the bits better after being operated for 24 hours.

[gareth]

Originally posted by salas


Experimentation is the key. What does it really mean 'believe' in the thread's title? I thought that the truth is about securing a phenomenon and then trying to describe it. Its about a process. Not faith.

Hi,
If you are saying "I don't believe cables...." then you are starting out with a pre-concieved idea and then you will never hear a difference because you do not want to? Is that what you're saying?

Gareth

[Salas]

There are phenomena with cables. It cant be mass delirium. It would have been deflated after so many years of practicing cable substitutions by so many people all over the world.
The real problem is that no real science has evolved so to describe and predict those phenomena positively and securely.
This is bad soil. Hence the urban myths and snake oil. Good cable is proper cable. Not expensive per se. Some scientific body must be formed in the industry and put things into perspective. Long due.

[gareth]

Originally posted by SY


Not in the hifi sense, no; as with many other bits of actual technical jargon, the high end community has adopted a term and given it a peculiar colloquial meaning.

There IS a real engineering term called "burn-in," and it does relate to having equipment turned on, but it's a reliability process (see "bathtub curve" and "mtbf"). Modems don't follow the bits better after being operated for 24 hours.

Hi,
This is what I understand 'burn-in' to be also. When we install electrical systems (both large and small) then we burn-in the equipment to see if any faults arise, sometimes these faults may appear immediately or after a day or too.
I always thought that 'burn-in' in the audio sense was offered by companies who sell rather expensive cables and want you to believe that it will perform even better after this burn-in period. Which kind of defies the laws of electrical physics.
Copper is copper from the day you unwrap from the packaging to the day you upgrade to the next cable, the only time copper changes it's state is when it's temperature exceeds 800C when it's atomic structure changes state.

Gareth

[gareth]

Originally posted by salas
There are phenomena with cables. It cant be mass delirium. It would have been deflated after so many years of practicing cable substitutions by so many people all over the world.
The real problem is that no real science has evolved so to describe and predict those phenomena positively and securely.
This is bad soil. Hence the urban myths and snake oil. Good cable is proper cable. Not expensive per se. Some scientific body must be formed in the industry and put things into perspective. Long due.

Hi,
But surely if people all over the world did not change their cables then there would be no audio cable industry and we would be using standard annealed copper as in the installation industry.

Please don't misunderstand what I am saying here (I would not like to see the audio cable industry collapse, and I am sure that it would not).

A scene from the film 1984 (George Orwell) comes to mind......"how many fingers do you see?" reply "four" answer "no,there are five, if the system says there are five then there
are five" Richard Burton

Gareth

[Salas]

Originally posted by gareth


Hi,
But surely if people all over the world did not change their cables then there would be no audio cable industry and we would be using standard annealed copper as in the installation industry.

Please don't misunderstand what I am saying here (I would not like to see the audio cable industry collapse, and I am sure that it would not).

A scene from the film 1984 (George Orwell) comes to mind......"how many fingers do you see?" reply "four" answer "no,there are five, if the system says there are five then there
are five" Richard Burton

Gareth

The problem is that without any secure knowledge, we cant judge value for money. So any industry that puts out a non quantifiable product can take advantage of its clients.

[soongsc]

Originally posted by SY


Not in the hifi sense, no; as with many other bits of actual technical jargon, the high end community has adopted a term and given it a peculiar colloquial meaning.

There IS a real engineering term called "burn-in," and it does relate to having equipment turned on, but it's a reliability process (see "bathtub curve" and "mtbf"). Modems don't follow the bits better after being operated for 24 hours.

The purpose might be different, but the action is pretty much similar. For Mil stuff, the process is much more complicated.

[gareth]

Originally posted by salas


The problem is that without any secure knowledge, we cant judge value for money. So any industry that puts out a non quantifiable product can take advantage of its clients.

Hi,
Thats the point I am trying to make, I have been reading another post on here about come little black box with a valve, resistor and capacitor..which to me is kind of similar in theory to what is being debated here.

To my mind the way forward here is to perhaps have some major group test involving audio- and non-audiophiles, man and woman, utilising the same source and playback equipment set at particular levels and then (as was previously suggested) using identical cables...one burnt-in and one fresh out the box and see what conclusions can be drawn.

Just a suggestion

Gareth

[Robh3606]

"The purpose might be different, but the action is pretty much similar. For Mil stuff, the process is much more complicated."

Well it depends on how you look at it. Burn in is associated with part screening for reliabillity purposes. Where I work we build Mil and Commercial satellite hardware. Most of it has a 15yr on orbit life expectancy. We test damn near every component that goes into one of these assemblies. Each transitory, Diode, Resistor, Inductor, Connectors and PCB's as examples.

Guess what is exempt from this testing?? All the internal wiring!! Aside from a VSWR check or harness buzz out it's OK to go right out of the box. No special test requirements for the wires beyond that we purchase the appropriate wire types.

I don't buy into cable break in as the audio industry defines it. If you don't do it on a 200+ Million dollar satellite it's simply not a factor of any real importance.

Rob

[SY]

The purpose might be different, but the action is pretty much similar.

Cargo Cult!