I don't believe cables make a difference, any input?

[Panicos K]

Originally Posted by boconnor

In most audio peer-reviewed studies, there are two factors that contribute significantly to consistent ratings from a listening panel: the panel received training on what to listen for prior to the trials, and the hearing of each panel member was tested (with standard audiometry tests) so that only those panel members with good hearing remained on the panel.

As I understand it "good" hearing is that a person's hearing loss does not exceed some specified db amount, for a specified frequency band. Of course hearing loss is also age related, so listening panels tend to not have many people over 50.

In any case how the panel is recruited, trained and tested are experiment design decisions made by those doing the research. Those things are done to maximize the chance that ratings will be consistent and that if there are differences between the test devices then the panel makes the correct call on the difference.



Happy birthday.



A nice thought, but unfortunately nature catches up with us all, and our hearing deteriorates as time goes on. Thankfully our experience and knowledge grows.

Thanks for the wishes

I find it a bit strange to train listeners prior to a test,especially if the people who are doing the test might be among those who do not accept differences.Listening experience(to hi-fi and music) is something that comes over the years,after trying many equipment,realizing mistakes and trying to "correct" them next time.When a person reaches this level of judgement for hi-fi equipment and music,then yes,I would call him "trained".

True,nature catches up with all of us.That is why I say let's keep on improving and enjoy our listening,and let nature do its thing with our hearing

[doug20]

Originally Posted by Panicos K

If you are open minded your listening ability becomes better,much faster than your hearing ability deteriorates
Spend your valuable time listening to music,not measuring it.Nature graced you with a pair of ears and brain to do this not a pair of probes You will never prove nature wrong.

Huh??

We are on a DIY forum that is all about design and measurements or atleast it should be.

I would never go on a DIY Car site and tell them to just drive their cars and stop building and stop measuring performance.

We are giving brains to learn and to question subjectivity. We are giving intelligence to know that what we experience is 50% subjective so in the end to be truelly accurate we have to properly control our testing experiences to validate the subjective experience....you can not validate without science!

If you just want to enjoy listening maybe this isnt the forum for you. If you choose to never do the properly controlled tests then how will you really know the complete truth and subjective experience posted as fact is just an insult to the intelligence that exists out there.



I get a sense that some are here for other reasons then DIYing speakers?

[Curly Woods]

We are on a DIY forum that is all about design and measurements or atleast it should be.

It is difficult to design anything without measurements, but these are just guidelines. The final determination should be done with the ears and brain I would hope though. We hear sounds with a combination of our ears and brain, not what we see with our eyes and our brains (thinking, reasoning, learning, etc.)

We are giving brains to learn and to question subjectivity. We are giving intelligence to know that what we experience is 50% subjective so in the end to be truelly accurate we have to properly control our testing experiences to validate the subjective experience....you can not validate without science!

Yes indeed. Without science, none of our equipment would exist. But we were given a pair of ears and that same brain to allow us to determine what sounds good or bad. I have never used a combination of eyes and brain to listen to anything.

If you just want to enjoy listening maybe this isnt the forum for you. If you choose to never do the properly controlled tests then how will you really know the complete truth and subjective experience posted as fact is just an insult to the intelligence that exists out there.

The audio equipment is a means to an end. If discussion of what differences exist between topolgies, drivers, cables, tubes, etc is not part of the final assessment, what good is it to build equipment? Sure it might measure wonderfully, but how does it sound?

I get a sense that some are here for other reasons then DIYing speakers?

Because people want to listen for differences in how different circuits, speakers, etc. sound? This is just as important as building something, unless if you could care less what the final results provide you. Frequency response measurements and distortion analysis are very important, but there are still far too many things that affect the final sound of a component that are not understood as yet.

[doug20]

Originally Posted by Curly Woods

It is difficult to design anything without measurements, but these are just guidelines. The final determination should be done with the ears and brain I would hope though. We hear sounds with a combination of our ears and brain, not what we see with our eyes and our brains (thinking, reasoning, learning, etc.)



Yes indeed. Without science, none of our equipment would exist. But we were given a pair of ears and that same brain to allow us to determine what sounds good or bad. I have never used a combination of eyes and brain to listen to anything.



The audio equipment is a means to an end. If discussion of what differences exist between topolgies, drivers, cables, tubes, etc is not part of the final assessment, what good is it to build equipment? Sure it might measure wonderfully, but how does it sound?

The enjoyment of listening and "How does it sound" is all subjective experiences thats done in the real world NOT ONLINE in a DIY Forum. I guess I can separate the two because I realize my subjective experience does not equate to any facts that need to be posted somewhere. Subjective experiences are not valid proof of anything really accept one person's subjective enjoyment so they shouldnt be used in discussions on DIY forums (IMO). I also know that everyone is different, our rooms, our equipment, our setups, our preferences so with that in mind I think posting subjective experience with fluff non-scienctific babble is meaningless.

btw, if you have never down a controlled test then you have being using your eyes your whole life! You are confused about what a controlled test means if you think you have never used your eyes when listening.

Because people want to listen for differences in how different circuits, speakers, etc. sound? This is just as important as building something, unless if you could care less what the final results provide you. Frequency response measurements and distortion analysis are very important, but there are still far too many things that affect the final sound of a component that are not understood as yet.

Too many posts mocking,question measurements in this thread so Im curious if these guys mocking measurements build DIY speakers and measure anything?

Or do they just enjoy posting their purely subjective experience online thinking its fact?

[Panicos K]

Originally Posted by doug20

Huh??

We are on a DIY forum that is all about design and measurements or atleast it should be.

I would never go on a DIY Car site and tell them to just drive their cars and stop building and stop measuring performance.

We are giving brains to learn and to question subjectivity. We are giving intelligence to know that what we experience is 50% subjective so in the end to be truelly accurate we have to properly control our testing experiences to validate the subjective experience....you can not validate without science!

If you just want to enjoy listening maybe this isnt the forum for you. If you choose to never do the properly controlled tests then how will you really know the complete truth and subjective experience posted as fact is just an insult to the intelligence that exists out there.



I get a sense that some are here for other reasons then DIYing speakers?

Of the 16 pairs of speakers I have diy'd so far,5-6 measured well and sounded...well not so well.That was concluded after listening.
Of the 23 turntables I have build so far,all were very good to excellent and still working great in 23 friends systems.(All sold to them with a 10% profit)
Of the 120 or so MC cartridges that I have rebuild and readjusted,many sound great.All are using boron cantilevers and line contact tips.(same profit margins here)
Not so good with tube amps but I'm trying my best.
As for cables,I've been diy'ing 28 years.I have learned a few things.....I think.
The greatest benefit I've had the last 28 yars was to improve my listening ability through mistakes and measurements.This helps me now to judge and decide whether I like a sound or not.

For what other reason do you think some are here?Can you find any published picture of anything I have buid?Don't worry we are not using the forum to sell anything.

[syn08]

Originally Posted by Panicos K

For what other reason do you think some are here? Can you find any published picture of anything I have buid? Don't worry we are not using the forum to sell anything.

While mostly disagreeing with your positions, indeed I haven't seen any form of advertising in your posts, and I have a pretty sensitive nose for such It is refreshing to recall that not all those involved in "high end audio" are snake oil merchands, it is also healthy to listen and have an educated discussion with industry members. This is, of course, not exonerating you from occasionally providing "proof" as required by those engineering bastards

Though I have a question. Why do you think the percentage of subjectivists (in all degrees) is so much larger among those one way or another involved in the audio industry, be it design, manufacturing or sales? And why is is not the same (at least quantitatively) in other consumer electronics areas (like e.g. video). Or is it?

BTW, I personally think that if there's any money available for R&D in the high end audio industry, it should go towards speakers and generally acoustics. Audio electronics, as we know it, is dead and buried since the 80s and no significant progress is to be expected, other than driving down the prices. Just look on this forum: 9 out of ten power amp projects presented here are one way or another D. Self Blameless clones, usually bastardized by an obvious lack of understanding on how this originally fine design is working.

[J.R.Freeman]

I haven't had the misfortune of reading too far into this terrible train-wreck, but let me tell you a story:


Once upon a time in a far away land,

R,L,C

The End!

[Curly Woods]

Originally Posted by doug20

The enjoyment of listening and "How does it sound" is all subjective experiences thats done in the real world NOT ONLINE in a DIY Forum. I guess I can separate the two because I realize my subjective experience does not equate to any facts that need to be posted somewhere. Subjective experiences are not valid proof of anything really accept one person's subjective enjoyment so they shouldnt be used in discussions on DIY forums (IMO). I also know that everyone is different, our rooms, our equipment, our setups, our preferences so with that in mind I think posting subjective experience with fluff non-scienctific babble is meaningless.

btw, if you have never down a controlled test then you have being using your eyes your whole life! You are confused about what a controlled test means if you think you have never used your eyes when listening.





Too many posts mocking,question measurements in this thread so Im curious if these guys mocking measurements build DIY speakers and measure anything?

Or do they just enjoy posting their purely subjective experience online thinking its fact?

Doug I sold audio for a long, long time. If any thing I am jaded to not hear anything different as most stuff is more of the same. Every now and then, something very special comes along and jolts me out of my "negativity", but rarely. I am more skeptical than most when it comes to listening to equipment. I have seen it all in that time from the gold plated chassis of some exotic tube amps, to the Rowland, Krell, Levinson, sculpted from solid aluminum chassis, etc. Looks are of little concern to me. Cables are cables. I am not an interior designer so color has little do with whether I like one or the other of them either.

I totally understand what you are saying about the subjective aspects too. It would be nice to have some subjective information available, possibly though regional audition events or something like this so that others could experience the differences and hopefully even the designers might learn something more as well.

[syn08]

Originally Posted by J.R.Freeman

I haven't had the misfortune of reading too far into this terrible train-wreck, but let me tell you a story:


Once upon a time in a far away land,

R,L,C

The End!

You would think so... Here's a nice algorithm for such discussions:

You claim that an
(X) audible
( ) measurable
( ) hypothetical

improvement in sound quality can be attained by:
( ) upsampling
( ) non-oversampling
( ) increasing word size
( ) vibration dampening
( ) bi-wiring
( ) litz wire
( ) replacing the external power supply
( ) using a different lossless format
( ) decompressing on the server
( ) removing bits of metal from skull
( ) using ethernet instead of wireless
( ) inverting phase
( ) reversing polarity of resistors
( ) ultra fast recovery rectifiers
( ) installing bigger connectors
(X) installing Black Gate caps
(X) installing ByBee filters
( ) installing hospital-grade AC jacks
( ) defragmenting the hard disk
( ) running older firmware
( ) using exotic materials in cabinet
( ) bronze heatsinks
( ) violin lacquer
(X) $500 or more power cords
( ) using silver wire blessed by Tibetan monks
( ) using unbleached cotton insulations
(X) installing tin foil, oil/paper, $100 caps

Your idea will not work. Specifically, it fails to account for:
( ) the placebo effect
( ) your ears honestly aren't that good
( ) your idea has already been thoroughly disproved
( ) modern DACs upsample anyway
(X) those products are pure snake oil
(X) thermodynamics laws are non-negotiable
( ) lossless formats, by definition, are lossless
( ) those measurements are bogus
( ) sound travels much slower than you think
( ) electric signals travel much faster than you think
( ) that's not how binary arithmetic works
( ) that's not how TCP/IP works
( ) the Nyquist theorem
(X) Claude Shannon is turning in his grave
( ) can't polish a turd theorem
( ) bits are bits

You will try to defend you idea by:
(X) claiming that your ears are trained
(X) claiming immunity to psychological/physiological factors that affect everyone else
( ) name-calling
( ) criticizing spelling/grammar

Your subsequent arguments will probably appeal in desperation to such esoterica as:
( ) jitter
( ) EMI
( ) thermal noise
(X) quantum mechanical effects
( ) resonance
( ) existentialism
(X) nihilism
( ) communism
( ) cosmic rays

And you will then change the subject to:
( ) theories are not the same as facts
(X) measurements don't tell everything
( ) not everyone is subject to the placebo effect
(X) blind testing is dumb
( ) you can't prove what I can't hear
(X) science isn't everything

Rather than engage in this tired discussion, I suggest exploring the following factors which are more likely to improve sound quality in your situation:
(X) room acoustics
( ) source material
(X) type of speakers
(X) speaker placement
( ) crossover points
( ) equalization
(X) Q-tips
( ) psychoanalysis
( ) trepanation

[Panicos K]

Originally Posted by syn08

While mostly disagreeing with your positions, indeed I haven't seen any form of advertising in your posts, and I have a pretty sensitive nose for such It is refreshing to recall that not all those involved in "high end audio" are snake oil merchands, it is also healthy to listen and have an educated discussion with industry members. This is, of course, not exonerating you from occasionally providing "proof" as required by those engineering bastards

Though I have a question. Why do you think the percentage of subjectivists (in all degrees) is so much larger among those one way or another involved in the audio industry, be it design, manufacturing or sales? And why is is not the same (at least quantitatively) in other consumer electronics areas (like e.g. video). Or is it?

BTW, I personally think that if there's any money available for R&D in the high end audio industry, it should go towards speakers and generally acoustics. Audio electronics, as we know it, is dead and buried since the 80s and no significant progress is to be expected, other than driving down the prices. Just look on this forum: 9 out of ten power amp projects presented here are one way or another D. Self Blameless clones, usually bastardized by an obvious lack of understanding on how this originally fine design is working.

You won't see any form of advertising at any time either,as I am doing what I'm doing for fun and not trade.I am glad that I could help friends save some money too
No problem if you do not agree with me.Strange though,because I agree with most of your points.I just go on and try my luck by using some imagination in my "designs"(),true, unorthodox imagination sometimes

I agree also that the percentage of subjectivists out there is very big.I have not really studied this subject,but you are right.If I were to speak for myself,I couldn't start manufacturing video equipment,but I guess I could set up a small business building cartridges.Small business will require marketting though,and a few nice reviews to make you knownThen,you could re-adjust prices......hahaha. No thanks,I'm enjoying what I'm doing now for fun,more.

Yes,money spent on speakers is money well spent.