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Old 20th October 2009, 06:31 PM   #6791
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Originally Posted by cbdb View Post
If your going to quible about .1db and not use a head jig, (and not instantaneously A/B) you need to also worry about room effects, changes in the room (moveing a pillow) comb filtering from the 2 speakers, atmospheric temp and humidity changes, changes in ear sensitivity, listening fatigue, hair lenght, changes in ear wax, how many coffees youv had, and probably more.
Well I have a dedicated music room that nothing changes in what so ever. There is little furniture in there other than my chair, the audio rack and LP and cd storage. My hair, what is left of it rarely changes too much, my ears are cleaned regularly, no pillows to deal with, it is a conditioned environment, and I do not sufffer from listening fatigue as I have dealt with the issues that cause that long ago. No quick A/B will do anything other than confuse people. A mid-fi salesmens's trick is what a quick A/B is best reserved for
 
Old 20th October 2009, 06:35 PM   #6792
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Originally Posted by Jakob2 View Post
I was simply complaining about your recommendations when a controlled blind test should be invoked, because this recommendation was only based on the things you (the experimentator) regard as possible/plausible.
Doing it that way garanties quite often that only the experimentators beliefs will be confirmed- especially if discrimination tests without positive controls were recommended.

So, my suggestion is, to avoid this sort of experimentator bias, to test in every case.
If you were looking for specific test suggestions, just remember what ive suggested earlier; avoid discrimination tests, use preference tests instead, include positive controls on sufficient sensitivity levels (and negative controls as well), train the participants and do some measurements before and after the test.
What am I going to have to do to pin you down to being specific? This is still vague handwaving. A specific question was asked, I gave a specific answer. You're still ducking, dodging, and offering platitudes. I want some specific recommendations on answering the specific hypotheses, viz, can the listener distinguish cable A from cable B by ear alone? If so, can the listener still do so when frequency response and level are removed as variables?

Either he can hear it or not. Period. These are good, falsifiable hypotheses. Invoking red herrings like positive controls is irrelevant to the hypotheses at hand. Give me a procedure to answer those specific questions, not name-checks of 18th century philosophers.
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Old 20th October 2009, 06:37 PM   #6793
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Originally Posted by panomaniac View Post
I've been suggesting that over and over. Would be nice to actually design and run a test like that. But no one seems interested.
For the cable guys, there's no money in it and they're unlikely to be happy with the results. And the ball is in their court.
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Old 20th October 2009, 06:39 PM   #6794
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Yes, you're right, smart and rich people never get taken in.
There must be a whole world full of fool's in your opinion, if that is the case. Maybe you should let them know that they are insane and not capable of handling their own finances, let alone be trusted to think, see and hear reliably without the aid of a close minded electrical engineer by their sides at all times
 
Old 20th October 2009, 06:46 PM   #6795
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Come over here, and I'll introduce you to quite a few. The usual tactic is to first identify how thick your wallet is. Questions about your existing equipment are in order. They won't even bother to schedule you for a demo with the expensive stuff if you don't claim you already have something in the same price range. If you meet the wallet thickness requirement, what follows are a few delicate questions if you heard about the amazing sound of the latest XYZ product. If you ever try to play smart and ask about specs and objective reviews, they usually shut down.

I usually have to lie them in the face and play dumb, to get an appointment for the stuff I want to listen to. And no, I have no remorses about.
If this is the treatment that you received, you have a choice. You can either deal with them or never bother with them again. I would do the later and if there are enough of the former, then they will remain in business. I would doubt that any company with that attitude would last long though, at least in a small market. New York City seems to thrive on this type of salon, but I have never seen or been around others that were like that.
 
Old 20th October 2009, 06:55 PM   #6796
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Originally Posted by panomaniac View Post
I've been suggesting that over and over. Would be nice to actually design and run a test like that. But no one seems interested.
Unfortunately, although I asked around, I was never able to find a practical example of a "positive control" in this matter.

Otherwise, the burden of devising such a test with "proper controls" is on those making extraordinary claims.
 
Old 20th October 2009, 06:57 PM   #6797
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There must be a whole world full of fool's in your opinion, if that is the case.
The existence of crystal healing, astrology, homeopathy, and televangelists does little to shake that opinion.
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Old 20th October 2009, 07:12 PM   #6798
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Originally Posted by cbdb View Post
If your going to quible about .1db and not use a head jig, (and not instantaneously A/B) you need to also worry about room effects, changes in the room (moveing a pillow) comb filtering from the 2 speakers, atmospheric temp and humidity changes, changes in ear sensitivity, listening fatigue, hair lenght, changes in ear wax, how many coffees youv had, and probably more.
Odd, this rationalization never comes up when a tube amp's Zout impact on frequency response is criticized. Ten seconds with pink noise should convince anyone the response variations from a couple inches head movement are several decibels. Is that the new metric for 'blameless'?

SY, treading carefully, part of the wide difference in, let's call it 'intensity of opinion', might be environmental. Visits to family in Ventura aren't complete without the jaw-dropping experience of catching a little local TV or reading the Ojai paper. Finding the equivalent in sheer lunacy is a task north of the 49th. But maybe that's just Cali.
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Old 20th October 2009, 07:14 PM   #6799
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rdf: I lived in Ventura for 12 years so I know exactly what you mean. A trip to Ojai was always a hilarious experience.
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And while they may not be as strong as apes, don't lock eyes with 'em, don't do it. Puts 'em on edge. They might go into berzerker mode; come at you like a whirling dervish, all fists and elbows.
 
Old 20th October 2009, 07:15 PM   #6800
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The existence of crystal healing, astrology, homeopathy, and televangelists does little to shake that opinion.
And I guess science has never been proven fallible either. With a closed mind, no new discoveries will ever be found. I guess the status quo is acceptable and comfortable. There would be no need to even try to grasp that anything new might exist or could be possible. Then what would we do if what we think that we know today, might be wrong. Oh dear what would we do..............

Last edited by Curly Woods; 20th October 2009 at 07:17 PM.
 

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