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Old 13th October 2009, 02:10 AM   #6391
GK is offline GK  Australia
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I stand corrected.
 
Old 13th October 2009, 05:19 AM   #6392
BudP is offline BudP  United States
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Stand corrected again GK, the music will be from the "Lost Worlds" only!

rdf,

Do make sure the tube is 100% cotton. The woven in Orlon or Rayon or spandex will provide you with a rising high end you cannot snub in the cable. Just a gentle warning.

Bud
 
Old 13th October 2009, 06:03 AM   #6393
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BudP View Post
. . .
Do make sure the tube is 100% cotton.
. . .
Bud
Cotton and copper--well I won't doubt that you heard a difference, but I'd like to know more about the other factors in the specific application (whereby the difference may be of benefit). What are your amplifier and speakers?
 
Old 13th October 2009, 07:55 AM   #6394
Jakob2 is offline Jakob2  Germany
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Originally Posted by syn08 View Post
A gang of science charlatans and snake oil merchands cannot have any recommendation taken seriously.

Would you have surgery to a hospital that proudly advertises their voodoo procedures outstanding results. A question mark is not required.

Otherwise, please go ahead and speculate as much as you want. It would only give me the opportunity to tell what I really think about e.g. the cable directionality and break in promoters (if not already clear enough).
Syn08, it´s just a fact that some cable manufacturers were participating in double blind tests, were supporting double blind tests and even were promoting the idea of double blind testing.
What makes it so hard to accept it?

I mean, this fact doesn´t prove anything else, just that some cable manufacturers were.....

Wishes
 
Old 13th October 2009, 08:05 AM   #6395
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Quote:
Originally Posted by panomaniac View Post
OK, let's take that as a starting point. I know it's a bit of a rehash, but we don't seem to be afraid of that in this thread.

If we somehow remove the EQ and level differences, will all cables sound the same? Can dynamic range be affected by cables? Noise can, but is it an issue with speaker cables?

Which brings us to a rather mundane question: Do "better" cables give flatter, more accurate response? What is the threshold for "better?"

Another question:
What could be the possible good qualities a cable may possess other than flat FR and low noise?

* Dynamics?
* Bandwidth?
* Impulse response?
* Detail?

Just wondering what qualities might make a cable "better." If we know what they might be, can we measure them?
You are right, first of all you have to define "best possible cable"
If we defined that as "a cable where you could double the length without sonic impact", we might be close to something usefull. Or one could define it as: "A cable where you can double its length incl. termination without sonic impact"
A third possibility could be: "A cable which can be put into the signal path without sonic impact."

The latter seems the most usefull to me, and if we choose this definition, the task should be clear: "Transmission without corruption."

Then: The absense of FR, can only be present if either DC resistance in the cable is very high, and the load is non liniar or, because of skineffect, which is the same as nonliniar impedance behavior within the cable itself, where impedance increases with frequency.
The latter seems often to be misunderstood, which might be because if you have a 12AWG solid core copper wire, then the impedance will rise 34% @ 20.KHz. The same does behavior does not go for multistrand wire, often measurements shows as little rise as 3% @ 20KHz.
So flat response I think, is no matter to adress within the cable itself.

FR IMHO is mostly a result of amplifier behavior to the load. If the load is capacitive, it should not affect the FR, if the amp has a low output impedance, but when it becomes big enough, it surely will. Amplifiers from the early 80´s, often ran into trouble when hooked up with flat speaker cables, which were highly capacitive at that time. And you also should beware of that when using class D amps. Your amp might oscillate, and eventually let the smoke out of the active components. Generally smoke has to stay inside the components, when let out sound starts to deteriorate.
So beware of using i.e. MIT cables and other "corrected" cables together with switcing amps.

If highly inductive you will affect the frequency response to the ears, This is sometimes used as a little trick, as higher inductance often sounds as if low level detail is emphasized, and the the cable thus sounds more revealing, but IRL it is amplifier behavior or misbehavior you are listening to.
Increasing inductance makes the transmission system resist changes in current. You could make an experiment to see this your self, i.e. try to connect a heavy load to your wall outlet, i.e. an iron or an electric kettle or so. Then turn out the light, an pull the plug. You will se very large sparks, which is caused by inductance. Then try to prolong you wire with some feet of single lead wire and hold them appart, and do it again, now the sparks are even greater. Just keep your nose a bit distant

So increasing inductanse is actually a decrease of dynamics, which by some people often is experienced as quite the opposite.
Hence the existence of the loudness war.

The presence of high inductanse values will also stress the impulse response, but it still is a matter of amplifier behavior, as it will have to deliver current before voltage. This kind of load affects the sound as already told, so often it tends to become a bit brighter sounding, which some people often connects with super speed and wide bandwith. But in fact it is the opposite, but don´t tell that to NordOst fans.

So a lot of the answers to your question regarding:
* Dynamics?
* Bandwidth?
* Impulse response?
* Detail?

Can be answered with "just increase induction" that will make it sound like if all 4 issues are bettered, just until the day you take it away, and realises that it was not so, instead it was the sound of troubled electronics.

This brings us to the main issue regarding cables, they ought to be non influent on the electronics, or electrodynamics connected. Different voltages, currents and impedances throughout the system, make the design criterias completely different for IC´s and speaker cables, as well as IC´s also should be different designed, if i.e. used for a pick-up cartridge rather than at line level. But I´m very lucky to realise, that mostly it is science afterall.

Last edited by Kurt von Kubik; 13th October 2009 at 08:25 AM.
 
Old 13th October 2009, 08:28 AM   #6396
Jakob2 is offline Jakob2  Germany
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Originally Posted by SY View Post
I'm still not getting your point. He claims to hear a difference. The frequency responses are different. There are no pathological components (remember that qualification!) that have stability or drive issues (it is trivial to find competent components, you have to seek out the bad ones). You eq out frequency response and level differences, about which there is ZERO controversy regarding audibility. Voila, the cables sound the same. If the user then, in the face of matched levels and frequency responses, still claims to hear a difference, he has a hurdle to overcome to demonstrate that there are invisible horses- that's his hurdle, not mine as someone engineering a rational solution to a technical problem.
I am just wondering about the different opinions about the situations where controlled blind tests are needed.
Maybe i understand something wrong, so let me list the different cases, as i did extract them from the discussion:

User is listening to two different cables with no frequency response differences above a certain threshold (leaving all other possible issues/effects aside) and he hears no difference -> no controlled blind test is needed

User hears a difference in this case -> a controlled blind test is needed (as no accepted "official positive blind test result" of others exist)

User hears a difference between cables where a frequency response difference exists (plausible magnitude of the difference ~0.05dB - 1.74dB) and prefers one -> no controlled blind test is needed (as others were able to detect something around 0.1dB broadband before and despite the fact that for example in the legendary greenhill cable ABX listeners were not able to detect frequency response differences up to 1.74dB with music but only with pink noise)

Under the assumption that the reason for the difference he thinks to hear is the frequency response difference, a passive network is included (leaving all possible other effects/issues aside) to flatten the frequency response and he hears no difference any more
-> no controlled blind test is needed

User hears still a difference -> a controlled blind test is strongly needed

I hope this way my concern is a bit more clear.

Wishes

Last edited by Jakob2; 13th October 2009 at 08:31 AM.
 
Old 13th October 2009, 08:53 AM   #6397
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BudP View Post
Stand corrected again GK, the music will be from the "Lost Worlds" only!

rdf,

Do make sure the tube is 100% cotton. The woven in Orlon or Rayon or spandex will provide you with a rising high end you cannot snub in the cable. Just a gentle warning.

Bud
Bud,

Between you and Panicos K, I am busting a gut Thank you for bringing some much needed humor to this discussion. By the way I love Rod Serling. He has no place here, but I do love his mind......

How would I go about checking about availability of 5K OPT from your company anyway? I need iron for my new mono tube amplifiers, and want to be sure to investigate all options. Thanks again for the laugh
 
Old 13th October 2009, 08:53 AM   #6398
SY is offline SY  United States
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Just to clean up your verbiage.

Quote:

User is listening to two different cables with no frequency response differences above a certain threshold (leaving all other possible issues/effects aside) and he hears no difference -> no controlled blind test is needed

User claims to hear a difference in this case -> a controlled blind test is needed if user wants the claim to be taken seriously

User claims to hear a difference between cables where a frequency response difference exists (plausible magnitude of the difference ~0.05dB - 1.74dB) -> no controlled blind test is needed to be taken seriously. User might consider one to determine if he is actually hearing the difference or imagining it.

EQ reduces frequency response difference to less than 0.1dB and he hears no difference any more
-> no controlled blind test is needed

User claims to still hear a difference -> a controlled blind test is needed for the user's claim to be taken seriously
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Old 13th October 2009, 08:55 AM   #6399
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Bad news for you, Mr. Woods- Bud is serious.
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Old 13th October 2009, 09:05 AM   #6400
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Originally Posted by SY View Post
Bad news for you, Mr. Woods- Bud is serious.
I think that Bud has a tongue in cheek personally. He has a good sense of humor in any event It's early, so if I miss understood, I need more coffee at 4:05AM
 

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