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Old 11th October 2009, 10:41 AM   #6271
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tony View Post
why is it that people are easy to embrace beiliefs in cables when all there is to cables is copper conductors and plastic insulations?

why is it that some folks would find a #9 cable small when all it will drive is a voice coil of maybe #30 to #24 copper wire?
If only it was that simple.
 
Old 11th October 2009, 10:57 AM   #6272
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I

I imagine VERY few hi-fi enthusiasts just sit there and listen to the music and never change anything for years - perhaps this is something to do with human psychology... we NEED to keep scaling new heights?

- John
John,

I have tried I do not recall how many varieties of cabling over the past 9 years or so, but have only "changed" the cables once in all that time permanently. I found what makes my system sing and have not found the need to make any other changes in cables in, oh about 5 or 6 years I guess. Why is it that people continue to say that cables make no difference in a "system", but then you state that Naim has engineered a system that must use their proprietary cables or else the system becomes unstable? Which is it, do they make a difference or not?

If you can not or chose not to hear what different cables do to a person's system, why does anyone else care about it? This is the thing that I can not get my arms around. Some will say that they do and some will say they don't, but it has never stopped the "pro" camp from doing what they "hear" from trying to find the best cables for their own personal systems.

What is so wrong with this and why all the fuss by those that disagree? This debate will rage for years and years and nobody will change their attitudes one way or the other. Maybe its time to get on with other matters that both sides believe can make our audio systems play music that will increase the believability of the music that they play :-)
 
Old 11th October 2009, 12:09 PM   #6273
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John, that "explosion" coincided with the general uptick in equipment pricing and economic bad times. People couldn't swap out (for example) preamps and power amps as often as they used to. As you said, they needed to somehow have control- or as Nelson Pass would say, a need to still be entertained. Aha! We can swap out wires and capacitors! That doesn't take a month's paycheck (though later on, it sure could, as the more cunning snake oil guys recognized both a market niche and the astounding gullibility of audiophiles, coinciding with an improvement in the economy).

Your observation that sociology drives this sort of nonsense is astute. The pseudo-science arguments given here are a perfect example of the rationalization process at work.
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Old 11th October 2009, 12:54 PM   #6274
syn08 is offline syn08  Canada
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Originally Posted by Curly Woods View Post
If you can not or chose not to hear what different cables do to a person's system, why does anyone else care about it?
Consider the following statement:

"If you can or chose to hear what different cables do to a person's system, why does anyone else care about it?"


Removing the negations in your quoted statement yielded a perfectly valid statement, as well. The key word here is "you" and the problems are starting with any attempt to extrapolate your findings to "others".

You would of course ask why the other, "objectivistic", experiences/opinions can be extrapolated. Here's where your team is on a collide course with the concept of "proof" and formal logic. And where pretty much the discussion breaks to nonsense.
 
Old 11th October 2009, 01:35 PM   #6275
johnm is offline johnm  United Kingdom
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Originally Posted by Curly Woods View Post
John,

I have tried I do not recall how many varieties of cabling over the past 9 years or so, but have only "changed" the cables once in all that time permanently. I found what makes my system sing and have not found the need to make any other changes in cables in, oh about 5 or 6 years I guess. Why is it that people continue to say that cables make no difference in a "system", but then you state that Naim has engineered a system that must use their proprietary cables or else the system becomes unstable? Which is it, do they make a difference or not?

If you can not or chose not to hear what different cables do to a person's system, why does anyone else care about it? This is the thing that I can not get my arms around. Some will say that they do and some will say they don't, but it has never stopped the "pro" camp from doing what they "hear" from trying to find the best cables for their own personal systems.

What is so wrong with this and why all the fuss by those that disagree? This debate will rage for years and years and nobody will change their attitudes one way or the other. Maybe its time to get on with other matters that both sides believe can make our audio systems play music that will increase the believability of the music that they play :-)
I never once said in my post that cables do not make a difference...

What I AM saying is that it becomes an obsession - and the marketing people know this VERY well now and charge obscene amounts of money for what is - no matter how pretty the cable may be, or what marketing terms are used - a metal conductor shrouded in a dialectric. And THAT'S IT! That is what people are being charged silly money for. I think it's sick! I really do.

The problem is compounded by people attributing 'sounds' to the cable. I.e. one sounds 'hard' and another sounds 'mellow' and so on. It is not hard to see how this has happened though: I was using DNM cable with my GB150D amps (a Greg Ball DIY design) and attributed a hard-edged sound to the cables. Later I learned that the amp was operating on the very edge of instability, hence giving this sound. Swapping to a more suitable cable banished this sound. Nothing wrong the the DNM cable per-se, but it's electrical characteristics just didn't suit the GB150D (well until some mods were made, but that's off-topic here).

This all goes back to my original statement that I wish amplifier designers would either include, or recommend an exact type of speaker cable for their amps, so one knows the unit is operating as it should, and we can get rid of all this snake oil voodoo and 'magic cable' nonsense and instead concentrate our efforts elsewhere. People would stop being fleeced too - that's what I really object to. I have nothing against people experimenting and having fun - that's why we're all here - but the cable companies who make all sorts of wild claims and charge through the teeth really wind me up.

Off my soap box now...
 
Old 11th October 2009, 02:13 PM   #6276
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Originally Posted by syn08 View Post
Consider the following statement:

"If you can or chose to hear what different cables do to a person's system, why does anyone else care about it?"


Removing the negations in your quoted statement yielded a perfectly valid statement, as well. The key word here is "you" and the problems are starting with any attempt to extrapolate your findings to "others".

You would of course ask why the other, "objectivistic", experiences/opinions can be extrapolated. Here's where your team is on a collide course with the concept of "proof" and formal logic. And where pretty much the discussion breaks to nonsense.
If you do not agree then why object? Does it affect you some how? If so then who's fault is that? Trying to persaude others to come around to your point of view is a power thing in my eyes, not trying to prove anything other than your point of view is the correct " version" of truth. Those that do hear, never tell others that they have to notice and I could really care less what anyone else thinks about what I do with "my" system.

Again what I fail to comprehend is why that it seems to bother those that demand that we can not hear what cabling does to "our" systems. Has the opinions of those that say it simply can not be changed any of the other sides minds about what they hear from cabling differences in their systems. How many years has this been going on now?

It just amazes me the sheer amount of effort that has been expelled in the effort to try to change the minds of "hearing" side of this argument. To what length will this go in their attempts to persuade the "hearing" crowd to abandon their views? Does this not boil down to personal ego? I am right and you are wrong. Why do you not understand!

Petty at best and overtly childish to continue to try to win an argument that the other side really could care less what the other thinks about the situation in the end, as it does not stop what is being done. It is akin to arguing with the wall. When do you tire of this exercise? Does the wall have a face or feature that reminds you of a past foe that you never conquered? When is an argument no longer an argument. How many people have any of the "non-hearing" among us managed to change the views of others lately? I would say that would be zero, but you continue on as if you were peoples' God and final answer to everything in audio. It is about power in the end. When do we let it go and move on to more productive discussions that will not be filled with innuendo and snide remarks about the other? I rarely see anyone make the remarks about the non-hearing crowd, except when they have been badgered and nipped at endlessly. Right is right and fair is fair. What you do not agree with is not an invitation to attack, but it is a chance to accept.

When people come together with a common interest, it is always easier to pick out the differences among them. It is harder, but much more civilized, to look for the common traits that brought them together in the first place, rather than seek to destroy with the differences. What would any civilization be like if the latter were allowed to run rampant? Not my idea of nirvana.
 
Old 11th October 2009, 02:25 PM   #6277
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Curly, I have no intention of trying to change your mind. If I had my fondest wish, it would be that you decide to actually set up a decent controlled subjective test and see what you find.
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Old 11th October 2009, 02:47 PM   #6278
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Quote:
I wish amplifier designers would either include, or recommend an exact type of speaker cable for their amps
Sweet dreams I would not trust business people AN recommends Condo recommends but, it is hard to imagine they would recommend lamp cord
 
Old 11th October 2009, 03:02 PM   #6279
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Sweet dreams I would not trust business people AN recommends Condo recommends but, it is hard to imagine they would recommend lamp cord
Agreed, besides speakers are all different in their demands. I would prefer to select my own cabling based upon the rest of my system, not simply depend upon the amplifier/preamplifier manufacturers to be the final judge.
 
Old 11th October 2009, 03:12 PM   #6280
Jakob2 is offline Jakob2  Germany
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That depends. What's the hypothesis you're testing? I wasn't proposing a test, I was proposing an engineering solution. If you want to make a test out of it, you have to be a lot more specific.
First of all one would have to ensure that _this_ engineering solution would lead to the same results as the _other_ solution (btw also an engineering solution ), as from an engineering point of view there might exist a difference at least because of lumped component vs. distributed components
(other factors as screening issues left out for simplicity) .

And second why not simply use a cable with suitable parameters?

Remember even with the passive network the user still needs a cable.

The fact that you were not proposing a test, but a solution did puzzle me, because you normally donīt believe that there is any audible difference existing as long as no controlled test has confirmed the difference.
So which way to confirm the audible difference due to a passive network if not by a controlled test?

Wishes
 

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