I don't believe cables make a difference, any input?

[SY]

on another table I have (pdf file) it shows a 35% increase in impedance on 12 AWG wire at 20kHz (compared to DC).

That sounds about right but, as with the "20dB" stuff that Passion presented before, we need to look at scale. For a typical run of speaker cable (let's say 5m), the total loop resistance is about 45m-ohm. So the 35% increase at 20kHz means about 60m-ohm. Let's say your speakers are beautiful 8R loads. Then this translates into slightly less than a 0.02dB error at 20kHz. The audibility of that is highly questionable.

You might argue, "But speakers aren't beautiful 8R loads!" And you'd be right. Although my speakers have a pretty flat impedance characteristic stretching up to the bat-ear portion of the spectrum, most speakers show a rising impedance in the top octave or two. However, that actually reduces the error, from negligible to nearly non-existent.

So I think the whole "rising impedance" thing about thick wire doesn't withstand basic analysis.

[Andre Visser]

Originally Posted by destroyer X

I have more empathy with the ones delirates listening things and goes perceiving sound stage (brain creation..as we have not microphone position or multiple channels encoded into the audio information)..but i think this is not science and it is imagination only.

Strange that different people can describe the same soundstage, this give a whole new meaning to imagination, imagine.

Originally Posted by destroyer X

Alike religions...when you ask why God did not have pointed America, to the jews in the desert, to be the promiss land... making that people rid of all that mess we had since long time..they say it is a mistery....
Carlos

Because they did not listen.

[destroyer X]

volume differences may let us evaluate spacial position of some instruments....and people can do that almost the same way.... this has consistence Visser... you are right.

But you will find a guy that perceive an orchestra in different high levels... alike some guys playng first floor and others playng second floor and so on.

I know a cable listener that guarantees he can listen that....maybe also viruses conversation and electrons fart too.

regards,

Carlos

[Andre Visser]

Originally Posted by SY

That sounds about right but, as with the "20dB" stuff that Passion presented before, we need to look at scale. For a typical run of speaker cable (let's say 5m), the total loop resistance is about 45m-ohm. So the 35% increase at 20kHz means about 60m-ohm. Let's say your speakers are beautiful 8R loads. Then this translates into slightly less than a 0.02dB error at 20kHz. The audibility of that is highly questionable.

Speakers present a complex dynamic load, looking only at resistance and FR will surely hide any possible effects of cables. The differences I hear are not related to FR but the quality of the HF audio signals, they start to sound dull and distorted to me.

Originally Posted by SY

So I think the whole "rising impedance" thing about thick wire doesn't withstand basic analysis.

Then we must look past basic analysis.

[Andre Visser]

Originally Posted by destroyer X

volume differences may let us evaluate spacial position of some instruments....and people can do that almost the same way.... this has consistence Visser... you are right.
Carlos

What about relative phase between channels?

Carlos, first it is important to get the system to reproduce all these small spatial clues correctly, then your brain can and will start to make sense of the 'noise' that are thrown at it. Do you realise that the brain can detect time variations of 1uS?

[SY]

Speakers present a complex dynamic load

That was exactly the point of the second paragraph of my post- that load actually makes treble effects LESS significant.

[Andre Visser]

Originally Posted by SY

That was exactly the point of the second paragraph of my post- that load actually makes treble effects LESS significant.

You were looking at the rising impedance at HF, in that sense you may be right but what happen to the 'dynamic' part of the speaker? Surely you have seen difference graphs over a length of speaker cable while driving a real speaker load.

[SY]

Originally Posted by Andre Visser

You were looking at the rising impedance at HF, in that sense you may be right but what happen to the 'dynamic' part of the speaker? Surely you have seen difference graphs over a length of speaker cable while driving a real speaker load.

That IS the dynamic part. The graphs of differences correspond exactly to what the impedance predicts.

I think where you're getting confused is thinking of the inductance of a speaker as being somehow different than the inductance of a coil that isn't moving. It's not. The only difference between a speaker load and a set of coils and capacitors with the same impedance is that some parts of the speaker's impedance can vary slowly with time (on the order of seconds to minutes) as they heat up.

[Andre Visser]

Originally Posted by SY

The only difference between a speaker load and a set of coils and capacitors with the same impedance is that some parts of the speaker's impedance can vary slowly with time (on the order of seconds to minutes) as they heat up.

What happen to the back EMF generated by the cone/coil's kinetic energy?

[SY]

Exactly the same thing that happens with any inductor's back EMF.