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Old 28th September 2009, 12:41 PM   #5811
brianco is offline brianco  Ireland
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Default What concerns me about measurement is ....

.... do we know enough about cable ( 'cable' being the finished item, including the signal conductor AND the dielectric ) behavior in audio applications to be certain that the measurements which we use are in fact capable of giving us enough knowledge upon which to base a subjectively optimum design.

I accept that all cables act as a media along which electrical forces flow from one link to another in the audio chain. Naturally these electrical forces can only follow the underlying laws of electricity flow and measurement of, say, capacitance can avoid some of the mistakes of the past.
However when the electrical signal is an audio signal there may well be properties of that signal - in terms of its audio qualities - of which the designer - or indeed anyone else - has no concept whatsoever but which have an effect on those odd qualities of soundstage, focus or tone of individual aural components in that soundfield, etc! [To find SY suggesting that such qualities are subjectively tested is indeed surprising] We must also be aware that these cables are in fact shaping the aural quality of the sound when it emerges from the speakers!

I believe that at this time we have too little knowledge and understanding of that knowledge to be able to accurately judge what happens from an audio viewpoint to the signal as it passes along a cable. It will only be as the result of very detailed measurement and record keeping of all known factors that a basis for a breakthrough in understanding will occur.

Until such a major breakthrough produces a new generation of cables which have totally predictable sound quality we can only rely on (very) subjective testing of a variety of cables it in our own system and find which cable best answers our individual needs.

Last edited by brianco; 28th September 2009 at 12:44 PM.
 
Old 28th September 2009, 12:53 PM   #5812
jlsem is offline jlsem  United States
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SY View Post
I think these quotes are why someone might get the impression that you were relating your measurements to audibility.
Which is why it is important to read posts carefully if you intend to go on the attack.

John
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Old 28th September 2009, 12:55 PM   #5813
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[QUOTE]Hi Curly Woods,
Quote:
I have no hard feelings toward anyone here. If you choose not learn to listen acutely, that is not my problem. I taught myself how and what to listen for from experience. If that is too far fetched for many of you to comprehend, I have nothing constructive to offer in a discussion here.

[CHRIS]This statement tells me that you are only here to push your point of view. You are unwilling to consider any other position, and yet you ask the same from all of us. I must say that you are assuming a lot of everyone, rather unfairly I must say.{CHRIS]

If people choose to not to learn to listen I can not help that. I am no one special because I can hear these things. I had a blind customer that loved high end music. He could never see a thing that he was buying (but he did have a friend with him always that could assure him that no funny business was going on). He bought what he liked to listen to, not based upon price or name brands or looks.

I do not know anyone who does not listen to the music. In fact, the people who don't understand electronics or know much about audio can be excellent judges of quality. They just know what they like or don't like. That's as simple as it gets. I know because I spent many years dealing with the public as an audio salesman, then a few decades dealing with them when things weren't working properly. These people do know what they are hearing, and 99% do not hear any difference between interconnects. That's probably because they have good equipment that is set up well. Not a single "passive preamp" among them.

Quote:
You are on your own with this one. I will not play your games any longer.
Just because he, and many others don't agree with you is no reason to act like this. Try looking at you from another person's perspective for a change.

Quote:
Over this period I can discern if the cabling has made a positive or negative impact on "my" system. Scientific, no not in the eyes of many. Does it work. It does for me.

[CHRIS]That's cool. Then you have selected what works best in your exact situation. You can not take this data and extrapolate to anyone else's system though. Other than that, fair enough.[CHRIS]

I understand that there was no data taken at any time. I also understand the frustration that I and others have not been in the presence of those with test equipment when I or others are trying to determine if a cable or cabling is right for their systems.

Quote:
Does this make the scientific crowd happy.

[CHRIS]That is an ill-defined term I think. Most people here listen carefully, but also own test equipment. I can tell you that if I hear something I don't like, I wish to "fix it", much like any other technical person. I am lucky in that I can usually find what bothers me and actually measure it. You seem to have a problem with SY as well. I can tell you from personal observation that he listens carefully. And yet SY has some equipment as well.[CHRIS]

If I come across as having an issue with anyone, I apologize. I see SY making wise remarks, along with many others here insinuating that differences are simply not audible. This tells me that he does not listen intently, or else not for what I and others are looking for in our listening sessions. If these remarks are not meant to be put downs, I respectfully disagree.

[CHRIS]I think you take an extremist view, and that will clash with any moderate around here. It's almost like any involvement from any test equipment is a sin that calls for excommunication from your church of sonic heaven.[CHRIS]

How is my view that I can hear difference any more radical than those that say that I and thousands of others can not?

Quote:
I have never twisted anyone's arm in an effort to brainwash or influence them.

[CHRIS]This statement is not exactly true in effect. From one salesperson to another, you know full well that many customers come in looking at you as the expert. It's your job to select and match a system that will provide quality reproduction for many years. That means that all you need do is suggest something, and that is just as good as twisting their arm. This is what sales is all about. Sell yourself, then sell what you want. Accessories is the only item that offers a good markup, so you sell accessories. Stands, wire, speaker wire, tape (?) and cleaning supplies. You sell it all, if not, you are a poor salesman and can expect a talk from your manager.[CHRIS]

Again you may have experience in mid-fi sales environment, but we never strong armed anyone as that was not tolerated, period! Yes I was asked to set up systems as were others on our team. the final decision on what sounded good together was a group decision and often evolved as time went by. Our systems were rarely torn apart to change them from week to week. This was done so that we as well as our customers could listen to the same system periodically and have a point of reference. We could not evaluate the synergy of a system by constantly making changes to it. Pieces may have been changed for a customer to here in one of these systems, but they were returned to their original states when finished.

Quote:
This debate will go on for ever between those that do not believe that people hear anything and those that feel that they do.

[CHRIS]As long as no consideration is given to the other argument, yes. As I have stated, most people accept a balance. It's an extreme view that will run into trouble. Extreme in either direction.[CHRIS]

I also understand this as well. I can not understand when people state that I am incapable of hearing something when i would never accuse them of not knowing how to design something either. If i prefer X amplifier or Z amplifier because of the way that it sounds in my system, I have that right to do so. I have never told anyone that they were incompetent to design anything though that satisfies their needs or wants.

Quote:
I am just a little tired of the constant innuendo that the moderators allow in this forum.

[CHRIS]Well, thank you for your support. For one, we try to allow the adults look after themselves. Their are no hall monitors here. We are forced to step in once things get out of hand. Now, the "constant innuendo" you are talking about has two sides. Essentially you are talking about two sides to an argument. No one has complained that your constant harping of what constitutes the truth for you appearing in most the threads you participate in. So, look at your complaint again. Every time you post, consider that many other people may consider what you are saying as "constant innuendo" the other way.[CHRIS]

Chris it would take me all of two minutes to round up any number of derogatory postings about anyone that claims that they are capable of hearing differences in any piece of audio equipment here. The moderators are often the worst as once they make a wise crack, a "pack mentality" sets in and the rout is on. Decorum is not a high point in these forums, unless you fall to the scientific side of these arguments in my experience.

Quote:
I am not here to create issues, but it is obvious that somewhere we have a disconnect between what people hear and how it is proven.

{CHRIS]You just insulted almost everyone here. Perhaps there is an improper connection between how you hear and how it is proved? I'm just looking at your argument the other way around.[CHRIS]

How is that an insult? It is obvious fact from what I see. You have those that know what they hear and you have those that say that it is simply not possible!

Quote:
I am trying to find out why these differences exist.

[CHRIS]So is almost everyone else here. The only difference is that many of us do understand what certain measurements represent about sound quality. That is something you should investigate. All data should be good to you, considering the lengths you are going to reach your answer. Excluding repeatable tests or experiments will not help you get to where you want to go. What you may want to do is investigate audio measurements to see how it compared to what you hear. You can rent that equipment, you don't have to buy it like many of us have. Run your own tests.[CHRIS]

Chris my testing procedures have been outline here. They may not represent the type of testing that you and others deem as valid, but I and others like me trust what they hear after training themselves over an extended period of time and using our own controls (same music, same amp, same preamp, same speakers). the only difference is the cabling in this example. I have already outlined how this works. it is simple and understandable.

Quote:
Yes I got angry, any one would if they were continually called out as not being able to prove something.

[CHRIS]You make the claim, you must be able to defend it. This is especially true if what you are claiming is in opposition to the accepted state of the art. It is that simple.[CHRIS]

Quote:
Doug you should have posted that you do not hear them. Obviously Passion and others do.

[CHRIS]This is a clear example of what you say that is not supported through controlled experiments. Believing this requires a suspension of the laws of physics. The human hearing mechanism is not designed to differentiate between loudness differentials of those magnitudes. Any audiologist can tell you that, these people specialize specifically on what you can and can not hear. They test people every single day. Yes, I have had those tests more than once in the last three years.[CHRIS]

I have controlled everything about what i do. The only thing that was changed was cabling. Everything remains as was except for this. Yes indeed I know what I put in to replace my reference, but I am not looking for positive results. I listen to the new item for at least one week, with a controlled set of recordings that I am intimately familiar with and a system that am also intimately familiar with. I can noly tell you that at the end of my testing I can tell whether the cables that were brought intop my system, improved the overall musical enjoyment of listening or it did not. It is that simple. I am not looking for better treble response, more bass, etc. I want to overall presentation to be more enjoyable. Maybe that can not be characterized by a measurement. I simply know if I prefer one cable over an other after my testing is completed. There have been many that have not I can assure you. Others like me have experienced similar results. I do not know how to quantify this or make it into a scientific reality. I do know that it is repeatable though, as it has taken weeks sometimes for me weeks to determine if I prefer one cable over another. Many times I don't and I stay with what I have as a reference. It is a hobby for me, not a research assignment

Quote:
I understand your opinion, but this does not change my views one iota. My years of being around very good audio equipment(as well as mid-fi) have allowed me to hear differences in all types of equipment. We will just have to disagree on this one.

[CHRIS]This is my point. You are in disagreement with just about everyone and you have continually stated that your views will not change. You are not looking for answers, you are trying to browbeat other people to agree with your viewpoint. Much like a Missionary, you are right and it's up to you to bring the truth to the poor ignorant masses. [CHRIS]

Everyone? Only those that do not believe as I do. I am trying to find out why, but I obviously have not the background to determine why. That does mean that i and many others that do are stupid, just as it does not mean that if a competent engineer design an amplifier that I do not find particularly musical that he or she is an idiot either.

Quote:
I have been to many CES's and meet a great many engineers from all of the upper end companies. They all have reasons why things sound different and I am sure that they fully understand why their designs sound the way they do.

[CHRIS]This is exactly the reason why you think the way you do. The truth will never be told at sales events (been there myself), the truth interferes with sales. My own long experience has illustrated that salespeople are generally the most confused lot of them all. Consider that most of the info you get was from "white papers" (sales mumbo jumbo masquerading as technical truth), sales material and the magazines sold in most high end stores. Sales people were always the most difficult to deal with when it came to warranty issues what their understanding of how things worked.[CHRIS]

I do not follow your logic. Yes I listened to the sales pitches, but before we decided to bring in any amplifier line, speaker line, cable line, etc, we listened to them in our reference systems to determine what they brought to the table for our customers. Many did nothing but look good. They were and are many that will be commercial failures purely because they do not sound good to the public that can afford them and are willing to pay for them. There are indeed people with money that will not listen, but want the best, but these people were always few and far between to keep a high end audio store open. "Sheep" as I have heard them called at times, rarely have the discretionary money, as they lack the jobs to even consider purchasing these types of items due to the cost.

Quote:
Passion at least may have a viable clue with his testing.

[CHRIS]I wish he did, but this is not the case. The numbers he was talking about are inaudible, so maybe there is something else at play here.
More importantly and stunningly basic to his testing is that he does not know what his margins of error are. In fact, it is possible the differences are swamped by the uncertainty of the test. In other words, the noise may exceed the measured difference! That would render the test useless, and misleading.[CHRIS]

Passion seems to think this is true and he is an engineer. Who do I believe if I can not trust an engineer?

-Chris [QUOTE]
 
Old 28th September 2009, 01:00 PM   #5814
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SY View Post
I think these quotes are why someone might get the impression that you were relating your measurements to audibility.
SY,

With regards to inferences, try reading yours and many others quotes in these forums when the subject comes up about the audiblity of differences. It will likely be eye opening. Anyone that states that they hear differences in many of these forums, are ridiculed, made fun of and or made to feel inferior for even the mention.

You as a moderator, by making many of these same statements, incite a "pack mentality", as people look to you and the other moderators for guidance as to what is acceptable and what is not.
 
Old 28th September 2009, 01:01 PM   #5815
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"Passion seems to think this is true and he is an engineer. Who do I believe if I can not trust an engineer?"

You trust him because he says he is an engineer??

I am an airline pilot - come fly with me!
 
Old 28th September 2009, 01:03 PM   #5816
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Quote:
Originally Posted by destroyer X View Post
I think you deserve all my attention and respect, you have courage.. a very strong man...i do not agree with more than 40 percent about your ideas, not even love you too much..but i have respect when i see someone strong with courage to face the "brains" we have in this forum.

Take a moment and read (listening) the text...some people read already searching for counter arguments... some does not even understand (really) what the other one mean... so... please, first try to understand in a humble way.

regards,

Carlos
First thank you for your post to me. I am a strong man Destroyer. Here in Texas we have a saying "Stand for something or else something will stand on you".
I am 52 and I have lived a lot of life. My life is a sum of my experiences and I hope that they have taught me well. I seem to be doing OK today. I am not sure what tomorrow will bring, but today I sleep with peace.

Last edited by Curly Woods; 28th September 2009 at 01:27 PM.
 
Old 28th September 2009, 01:08 PM   #5817
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cliff View Post
"Passion seems to think this is true and he is an engineer. Who do I believe if I can not trust an engineer?"

You trust him because he says he is an engineer??

I am an airline pilot - come fly with me!
If you are the pilot when I board a plane, what choice do I have? I hope that the airlines have checked your credentials first :-)
 
Old 28th September 2009, 01:10 PM   #5818
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cliff View Post
"Passion seems to think this is true and he is an engineer. Who do I believe if I can not trust an engineer?"

You trust him because he says he is an engineer??

I am an airline pilot - come fly with me!
And that comment is not a slap in the face of a fellow member here? Is this what you call decorum?
 
Old 28th September 2009, 01:26 PM   #5819
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Quote:
Originally Posted by brianco View Post
.... do we know enough about cable ( 'cable' being the finished item, including the signal conductor AND the dielectric ) behavior in audio applications to be certain that the measurements which we use are in fact capable of giving us enough knowledge upon which to base a subjectively optimum design.

I accept that all cables act as a media along which electrical forces flow from one link to another in the audio chain. Naturally these electrical forces can only follow the underlying laws of electricity flow and measurement of, say, capacitance can avoid some of the mistakes of the past.
However when the electrical signal is an audio signal there may well be properties of that signal - in terms of its audio qualities - of which the designer - or indeed anyone else - has no concept whatsoever but which have an effect on those odd qualities of soundstage, focus or tone of individual aural components in that soundfield, etc! [To find SY suggesting that such qualities are subjectively tested is indeed surprising] We must also be aware that these cables are in fact shaping the aural quality of the sound when it emerges from the speakers!

I believe that at this time we have too little knowledge and understanding of that knowledge to be able to accurately judge what happens from an audio viewpoint to the signal as it passes along a cable. It will only be as the result of very detailed measurement and record keeping of all known factors that a basis for a breakthrough in understanding will occur.

Until such a major breakthrough produces a new generation of cables which have totally predictable sound quality we can only rely on (very) subjective testing of a variety of cables it in our own system and find which cable best answers our individual needs.
I completely concur Brianco. I would really like to know why though, so we could move on to the next steps in bring us all closer to what real live unamplified music truly sounds like, into our homes.
 
Old 28th September 2009, 01:35 PM   #5820
doug20 is offline doug20  United States
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Quote:
Originally Posted by brianco View Post
.... do we know enough about cable ( 'cable' being the finished item, including the signal conductor AND the dielectric ) behavior in audio applications to be certain that the measurements which we use are in fact capable of giving us enough knowledge upon which to base a subjectively optimum design.

I accept that all cables act as a media along which electrical forces flow from one link to another in the audio chain. Naturally these electrical forces can only follow the underlying laws of electricity flow and measurement of, say, capacitance can avoid some of the mistakes of the past.
However when the electrical signal is an audio signal there may well be properties of that signal - in terms of its audio qualities - of which the designer - or indeed anyone else - has no concept whatsoever but which have an effect on those odd qualities of soundstage, focus or tone of individual aural components in that soundfield, etc! [To find SY suggesting that such qualities are subjectively tested is indeed surprising] We must also be aware that these cables are in fact shaping the aural quality of the sound when it emerges from the speakers!

I believe that at this time we have too little knowledge and understanding of that knowledge to be able to accurately judge what happens from an audio viewpoint to the signal as it passes along a cable. It will only be as the result of very detailed measurement and record keeping of all known factors that a basis for a breakthrough in understanding will occur.

Until such a major breakthrough produces a new generation of cables which have totally predictable sound quality we can only rely on (very) subjective testing of a variety of cables it in our own system and find which cable best answers our individual needs.
You really thing there is 'unknowns' still about cables? I might be mistaken but I think they solved all the properties of an electrical current a LONG time ago.

btw, Is it me or does this thread jump back and forth from speaker wire to Interconnects? Are we discussion Interconnects alone?
 

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