I don't believe cables make a difference, any input?

[mrfeedback]

Hi Kuei,
First off you have made some very good points in your discussion.

Among these where for example 36 Pair solid core twisted, foil screened pair cables (PTFE insulation, silverplated, heavy duty outer screen, silicone rubber outer insulation for use where it gets VERY hot) that made excellent "Multicore" cables, except for their tendency to eventually break,

I would say that was a quite unique multicore.
I have found silicone insulated power leads make a very nice difference.

We never did much about speaker cables, internal wiring in boxes was always heavy duty solid core (installation) cable, as we could get that easily, but from the Amp-Racks to the Speaker Stacks we did need limp, stranded cable, so that's what we used. Still I wonder....

I have installed 12-pair in a disco permanent installation, and the improvement was night and day.
I have also wired a friend's big Marshall amp wired to two Marshall Quad boxes using 12-pair telephone cable, and this has effected a very nice improvement indeed - no high-mids glaring (ear bleeding) anymore, and the guitarist tells me that his hearing is improving (returning) accordingly.

Note, during all these experiences I EXPECTED cables to make ABSOLUTELY NO audible contributions and was mightly pissed off when they did and in such a fairly large degree too (I recenoed the differences of multiocore and mike cables together easily in the same region as those between a real Sure SM-58 and a cheap far east copy, so not particulary subtle).

Ahh, 'sucked in' as we Aussies would say.
So why did you expect or believe all cables to sound the same (make ABSOLUTELY NO audible contributions) ? - was it some college lecturer who forced that into you ?.

What are you complaining about here? Are you again saying:

I agree that these seemingly weird and illogical inventions and
contentions do usually hold some truth.

Well, to be simple, IF changes in error correction and/or focusing behaviour of the Laser could be proven (maybe sharper "pit's" from "burning" away stray metalisation via eddy currents - the metaised film is very thin) you would have two variable that effect the the optical system but cause differences in sound. The error correction is obvious, the fairly high currents pulsing and changing in the laser focus mechanism ultimatly modulate the PSU which invariably modulates the jitter spectrum of the player, which MAY be audible.

Yup, I agree entirely - how come Paulinator has no grasp of this ?.
I have tried once (at work) to try demagnetising a disc with my CRT demagnetiser (very high field), an although I need to experiment with this at home, I did find that the sound did change slightly to one that is a little more relaxed - I don't have the answers either !.

but also to obscure the actual function and to misdirect others in an effort to protect intellectual property?

Yes, absoloutely, and I would do the same if I had to.

I guess as an openminded Humean (after David Hume) who takes nothing on credence or not but prefers to investigate empirically I am sort of in the middle between the trenchfight between the equally deeply entrenched subjectivists and objectivists.

Yes, and my position entirely too (perhaps to the surprise of those around here who so often read me incorrectly), and yes I take note of observations or claims made by others, but until I have tried the experiment for myself, I keep an open mind and do not form any solid opinion.
I consider Objective measurement as a means of correlating Subjective findings, and neither is fully justifying in isolation.
I have never understood why this subject causes so much discord.
I know that the answer is that there are plenty of measurement only types with cloth ears who force their instrument findings, and plenty of finely eared types with little proper technical knowledge, and from this springs different ways of saying the same things, but is lost in the language and ego barriers.

Cheers, Eric..

[ThorstenL]

Koinichiwa,

Originally posted by mrfeedback
I would say that was a quite unique multicore.

For Pro-audio, yes. As cable it was simply a high spec (high temperature) cable to take signals from sensors near ovens (Electric Arc principle) that cooked a lot of steel to the air conditioned control centre where all electronics set.

It gets jolly hot near such ovens (PVC cable literally melts) and more than once I had to splice such a multicore after it had received a good splash of liquid steel (despite heavy silicon rubber sleeve and plated steel basketweave armouring below). Virtually all wiring we used there was high-temp stuff, very similar to the USAF/Navy/Army Mil-Spec stuff and for similar reasons I think.

Originally posted by mrfeedback
I have installed 12-pair in a disco permanent installation, and the improvement was night and day.

I would think so, especially as the runs in such places tend to be very long, from remote large Amplifier racks. In our case for the state systems the Amp's where under 1m behind the PA Speaker statcks....

Originally posted by mrfeedback
Ahh, 'sucked in' as we Aussies would say.
So why did you expect or believe all cables to sound the same (make ABSOLUTELY NO audible contributions) ? - was it some college lecturer who forced that into you ?.

Not quite, but looking at the impedances involved and besic R/L/C/G parameters of the Cables I considered it to be "simply not possible". Remember, I was fresh out of the Poly...

So I can follow the train of thought that makes most EE's without extensive experience in the more esotheric sides of electronics and/or without 1st Hand experience of what cables really do to declare that all the expensive cables are bunk. The High End Cable industry in general and at large is also not doing itself any favours....

Originally posted by mrfeedback
I consider Objective measurement as a means of correlating Subjective findings, and neither is fully justifying in isolation.
I have never understood why this subject causes so much discord.

I agree on the role of measurements. I tend to say that measurements as such cannot tell you something you don't already know, they can only quantify the "how much" of what we already know.

So, to conventional, existing measurements to look for effects that are not sufficiently explained by the theories those measurements are based upon is like walking around in the dark and claiming because it is always dark no-one can see. All one actually needs to do is find the lightswitch. Yet some people are immensly fond of darkness.

Sayonara

[mrfeedback]

Yes, in my comment I meant that both camps do have their attributes, however of course, neither explains all.
Some objectivists could be described as walking around with their eyes (ears) closed, and some subjectivists as walking around in the dark.
Both views ought to reinforce each other in my view.

Eric.

[tim_rule]

I can believe I even bothered to read this thread, guess I needed a laugh.

Anyway when I looked at the tiny little wire connecting the speaker terminal to the voice coil, combined with the tiny little wire on the resisitor/capacitor/inductor...well its all a bit of a joke really.

My wire costs 70 euro cents a meter and its the nicest blue cable I have ever seen, the white strip down the side is just the icing on top of the cake.



Tim.

[analog_sa]

My experience with cables dates back to the seventies and eighties when after market cables were not a common accessory. Insted of taking for granted that cables make a difference we were simply astonished to hear that against all preconditioning by common engineering principles they actually sound different. Not two pieces of wire sounded the same. At the time it wasn't a matter of expense or prestige, just an apocryphal observation that cables make a difference. To my ears the effect of cables is not comparable to speaker positioning; it's sonic footprint is just different, not more or less significant. Today i listen to moderately expensive commercial cables as all my diy experiments sound worse. I like neither CAT5 nor pure silver in teflon and have no clue what actually makes good wire. The diy recipes i've tried (not many) certainly have advantages in some areas but overall my commercial cables are better.

[ThorstenL]

Koinichiwa,

Originally posted by tim_rule
Anyway when I looked at the tiny little wire connecting the speaker terminal to the voice coil, combined with the tiny little wire on the resisitor/capacitor/inductor...well its all a bit of a joke really.

And? I personally for example do not advocate very thick cables in HiFi/High End Speaker cables.

But further, you may find re-wiring your speaker internally using good quality solid core wire, as well as bypassing the binding posts, bi-wiring where sensible and using the external wire also in some form of solid core wire/cable (the perennialy quoted Cat5 Computer Network Cable is a good and extremely cheap choice) will give a surprisingly large change in sound, compared to stock (stranded) Speaker Cable and internal wiring.

If such a change is neccearily an improvement is another question.

I know a number of Electronic manufacturers who "voice" their equipment with nasty, stranded wire and if you use what amounts in reality to actually less sonically "invasive" cable thanthat the systems starts to sound rather unpleasant and bright (I'd naim some companies here, but for peace's sake I shall not - but yes, most are arguably british).

Sayonara

[The Paulinator]

Well...... apparently I'm a little out of my league.

Or so it seems. I am told that because I think some of these things I have mentioned are a big waste of money, I must not be able to afford them in the first place, and therefore I am only taking the side that I have to justify my purchasing of cables and other items that.... well.... just aren't up to snuff.

Remember that I USED to buy all this stuff. I can afford it just fine.

Apparently I am not open minded because I cannot hear the difference between these items. Well, everybody else that I do these tests on must not be very open minded either. My mind is actually more open now than ever. It was a closed mind that caused me to think I was hearing such great differences.

I don't think that mentioning the prices of some of things is being unspecific of my point. It is simply a detail that I think helps my statement as a reminder of just what kind of dough people put down for this stuff. Did I confuse someone by putting a price tag next to it?

Remember, I was not trying to argue or force my opinion onto anyone, I just stated my opinion and was very curious to hear others. If someone were to show me, or prove to me that cables made a difference then I would not resist the change of sides at all. I simply have every reason to beleive, for myself, that they do not.

I think it is VERY interesting, though, that a few people seem to be getting a bit defensive about my thoughts. I feel (FEEL) that this may be a sign of the closedmindedness that I had when I was a cable beleiver. People would mention something like this at the store or on a forum, and I would get thet "How dare you suggest such a thing!" atitude. Perish the thought IMMEDIATELY that I may have spent thousands of dollars on something that is absolutely oblivious to my goal of perfect sound.

Remember, this is only my opinion. At the very most, I might hope to be a sort of town crier for someone out there who just blindly spends all his hard earned money on cables or other things when he could be using it on something that would make a substantial difference.

And please remember, I am not typing out this post and re-reading it a million times to make sure I do not folly or semi-contradict myself accidentally and draw nitpickers' fire. I think you understand what I am saying. Let's discuss the main point here, not stress over why I worded something this way, or why I was so crazy as to mention the price of something in the same sentence as I talked about it. This is not a Presidential address.

[analog_sa]

If you are looking for a forum to troll i'd recommend the cable asylum. Very few at diyaudio have spent or are likely to spend thousands on cables so you're basically wasting your cermons here.

[ThorstenL]

Koinichiwa,

Originally posted by The Paulinator
Remember that I USED to buy all this stuff. I can afford it just fine.

So, what where your experiences for example with the $ 600 Cable burn in box? And with the CD Edge Pen?

Originally posted by The Paulinator
If someone were to show me, or prove to me that cables made a difference then I would not resist the change of sides at all.

What would consider sufficient "show" or "prove"?

How about I suggest a very basic, simple System that you should be able to find easily and probably have some use for in your Office or such, one that costs as a system a lot less than ANY HigH End Speaker Cable and I ten suggest a number of specific modifiaction (mostly internal re-wiring) of these items, plus then simple and inexpensive recipies for DIY Cables.

Then you can simply compare.

Or do you want to drop by at my place for a short, sweet (and blind) listening test comparing a pair of 1m Length Interconnects (my best DIY units against a pair of RCA cables that come in the box with cheap HiFi Gear)?

Originally posted by The Paulinator
I think it is VERY interesting, though, that a few people seem to be getting a bit defensive about my thoughts.

Funny. I seem to have failed to have noticed ANY thoughts (in the sense of original thought) in your comments. All you have been railing on about is the price of commercial cables and you have noted that in a given system under a given condition you felt there was no difference.

I have compared cables blind and sighted and find them to make a difference. BUT, my system in many ways has all the attributes of a studio monitor setup (that is my sort of background) and it tends to let you hear very small changes in all sorts of areas. So arguably, the kind of system I listen to and have listened to for most of my life tends to be one that will make you hear differences.

I once did a blind test with a few people from our audio club. I did not even change cables, I merely removed the Bias Batteries from the screens of the Cables I was using then. All present, even thouse not in the hot seat heard the switch clearly, except they did not know I had switched ANYTHING.

No I have no problem with anyone saying "I can't hear the difference" or "I don't care about the difference" and the like. If you cannot hear a difference, all the better for you. Saves money.

What I object to is the next step or two that you take, namely:

1) I cannot hear it so no-one can (and your blind tests really are very poorely implemented).

2) Because I cannot hear it and nobody can hear it anyone saying they can is a charaltan.

I repeat, all I hear you complaining about is $600 That, $ 500 or $ 2,000 This and "This or That are fraud".

Cables can be homemade quite easily, inexpensively and with often good results. Understanding the basics about cables will give you chance to find which cable PRINCIPLE works in your system and buy some inexpensive cables using these principles. Cables (just like good sounding stereos) do not have to be extremely expensive (unless you are in the US where it seems price is being equated with quality).

So I fail to see ANYTHING in your comments except "I paid a lot of money for cables and can't hear a difference" and a general line that seems to indicate that anything you do not consider valid is fraud. So, somehow I fail to see any original thought.

BTW, you have not comment on ANY of the specific points I quoted with regard to blind testing and any number of others.

Sayonara

[mrfeedback]

Kuei,
A lot of members around here have cloth ears, or lousy systems, or both.
You and I have monitor level systems, but a big bunch around here do not, and to them the world is flat.
Save your time and your effort for fruitful communications with those who do understand things like just breathing on a fader or eq knob radically changing the whole harmonic structure, ditto swapping cables changing sonics on a revealling system.
You mention polarised interconnects - can you give more details.

Eric.