I don't believe cables make a difference, any input?

[fredex]

Originally posted by Alex from Oz
........Cables are an integral part of a system and as such need to be considered in the context of the system.

Yes. I believe it is a system thing, and until proven otherwise LCR is what changes the behaviour of the system.

Also this means that any 'sound' or 'effect' that results is a property of the system and not a property of the cable itself, so you can say that "cables do not have a sound".

However there are those who believe that the cable itself does have a sound, or it produces a certain effect (usually a change in focus or sound stage) that they can hear. If this were the case it would be reasonable to expect that certain cables would eventually acquire a reputation based on what they sound like. And further more this sound or effect would follow the cable around in different systems. Even a body of anecdotal evidence to this effect would convince me that there something was going on.


If everyone has different opinions on the sound of a particular cable it is either in the their minds or we are back to LCR doing different things to different systems.

[Andre Visser]

Originally posted by fredex
To me the article is about some measurements of a system, not some measurements of cables. And the system is not specified, what amp? what speaker? We do not know if the same results would have been obtained if these were changed.

What were of interest to me in that test was that measuring into a resistive load show no differences between the input signal and what were seen on the load, using a real load changed everything even show differences on either side of the cable. Whether that 'small' differences are audible, that is the reason for this thread isn't it?

How many tests are done with real loads?

[Andre Visser]

Originally posted by Alex from Oz
Question 2:
Could there be an audible difference in a given system caused by swapping cables?
Alex

I agree, the redenation of cables 'measuring the same' or 'poorly designed equipment' has little to do with the fact that cables do make a difference in commercialy available systems.

The normal hi-fi listener (don't know if something like that exist ) don't walk around with a LCR meter and spectrum analyzer to buy equipment.

Another 'strange' observation I've made is that the more realistic a system sound, the easier it became to hear cable differences or is it differences that cables make.

[Andre Visser]

Originally posted by scott wurcer
Who ever said cables didn't measure and sound different?

but thanks for saying that Scott.

[SY]

The answer to Question 1, so far, is no.

I would disagree. A 1dB change in frequency response isn't a lot, but depending on where in the audio band, it can certainly be heard in ABX tests, despite the vagaries of loudspeakers and rooms. Take that number to 0.1dB and you'll get more agreement.

[fredex]

Originally posted by Andre Visser
What were of interest to me in that test was that measuring into a resistive load show no differences between the input signal and what were seen on the load, using a real load changed everything even show differences on either side of the cable. Whether that 'small' differences are audible, that is the reason for this thread isn't it?

The signal actually across the speaker terminals is the signal that moves the cones, not the signal across the length of the cable.

The thing I noticed is in Fig 6.9, the amplitude of the signals across the speaker is greater than that across the amp output. Odd? To me this suggests the plots on the right are showing speaker generated artifacts and not just the amp signal after it has travelled through the cable. The left plot show those same speaker generated signals attenuated by the cable and damped by the low output impedance of the amp, (the driving signal must also be in there)

Maybe somebody more experienced with these type of test signals would like to comment please ?

EDIT I meant Fig 6.8 full range speaker, but Fig 6.9 woofer shows the same effect.

[bwaslo]

Originally posted by scott wurcer

How much can you discuss, "yes, cables make a difference but it's probably just the equivalent circuit that matters" without even trying to put it to the test?

Um, wasn't that exactly what I've been proposing the past several days?

How many times can someone discuss how its not worth discussing anything in this goinn' nowhere thread.... and still keep coming back to post?

[Andre Visser]

Fredex, surely the effects come from the speaker, thus explaining why it is larger on the speaker side, Point is you can now see differences measured on either side of the cable that were not the case with a resistive load. Now it is possible to see that different cables produce different results.

This put a big question on the normal 'measured into 8 Ohm' specifications of amplifiers.

[tinitus]

Originally posted by SY


1dB change in frequency response isn't a lot, but depending on where in the audio band

Look at the 1uf bypass cap (red arrow)

It makes quite a difference
Some might know how much signal is attenuated where its active

[scott wurcer]

Originally posted by Steve Eddy


Damn. Fremer just can't catch a break in this thread, can he?

se

I need an editor.

I bring it up as an example only. It was not the usual AES suspects and ABX boxes trying to prove "all amplifies sound the same".

I think Mike is a sincere and intelligent guy most of the time. He has a recent fairly thoughtful blog entry covering the usual issues. He was willing to participate in that experiment which at least gives all this an air of ambiguity.