I don't believe cables make a difference, any input?

[cliffforrest]

Originally Posted by olblueyez

Me too!



Bravo, a man who knows what he likes.

Hey Kareface, wait till you see my signature, lots there to get your juices flowing.

Your not related to Curly, per chance?

[kareface]

I'd like to expand on this. Again, personal bias will influence any decision to some degree. The problem becomes when there's no tangible way to differentiate between products, extraneous attributes can and will be the exclusive basis for comparison. This is unconscious, you have no control over this fact. It might be water tasting different or speaker cables making you hear things. Even if the perception is different the source is not, so it wouldn't matter if you paid 10 cents or $10 for the water, the source isn't the cause of the difference, it's your mind.

[markus76]

Originally Posted by kareface

Even if the perception is different the source is not

And that's why we do double blind tests - remove bias. No DBT I know of has ever proven that different cables sound differently.

[janneman]

Originally Posted by kareface

I'd like to expand on this. Again, personal bias will influence any decision to some degree. The problem becomes when there's no tangible way to differentiate between products, extraneous attributes can and will be the exclusive basis for comparison. This is unconscious, you have no control over this fact. It might be water tasting different or speaker cables making you hear things. Even if the perception is different the source is not, so it wouldn't matter if you paid 10 cents or $10 for the water, the source isn't the cause of the difference, it's your mind.

This is sometimes quoted as a disadvantage of DBT's. If the subject can not hear any difference (either because there is none, or if the two DUTs are really the same piece of equipment) he still will be under pressure to make a selection because most subject would like to avoid a risk of not noting a difference if there is one. But there are no extraneous clues available either. I can imagine this is a stressfull situation, albeit self-induced. This may lead to unreliable outcomes.

jd

[markus76]

Originally Posted by janneman

This is sometimes quoted as a disadvantage of DBT's. If the subject can not hear any difference (either because there is none, or if the two DUTs are really the same piece of equipment) he still will be under pressure to make a selection because most subject would like to avoid a risk of not noting a difference if there is one. But there are no extraneous clues available either. I can imagine this is a stressfull situation, albeit self-induced. This may lead to unreliable outcomes.

jd

That's the beauty of it. Making random choices will produce the same results as "no difference audible".

[Cal Weldon]

olblueyez and kareface,

We have a rule around here about getting personal in your posts. You are allowed attack the idea, not the person. First and only warning to both.

[rdf]

Originally Posted by kareface

You sound like a child throwing a temper tantrum. You accuse me of making assumptions only to make unsubstantiated declarations about myself and my motivations.

Thanks for the morning chuckle.

[olblueyez]

And for the end user it all boils down to using your ears to decide what makes you happy. We are talking about listening devices for musical enjoyment right? And hey, if you or anyone else wants to do blind testing when making decisions then right on man. But I don't think its very realistic for some of these guys to say stuff like "All cables sound alike" or my favorite "Its your responsibility to provide proof" like we are in a classroom doing a science experiment and we must use scientific protocol and etiquette.

Hey Kareface, the only reason people bring up product bias in a cable thread is to use it as some kind of tool for convincing people all cables sound alike when we both know the mention of product bias can be introduced only as a theory since you don't have information on everyone and every piece of equipment. Its a circle jerk. It doesn't really have any bearing since it can neither be controlled or tested in a reasonable fashion as it pertains to the discussion. What is it that you want? Everyone to study up on electronics and buy some equipment and test every available aspect of their stereo equipment and to then make decisions only based on that information and fully disregard what they hear? Don't you think if that were reasonable, completely effective, and always worked then more people would be doing that and spending less time here posting in a 13 thousand 5 hundred plus thread posting about a topic that is no closer to some kind of solution or agreement than it was on the first page??? I'm telling people not to worry about things they cannot or will not control to forget blind testing as it is confusing and often in audio does not have much to offer to choose a group of familiar music and listen to it as much as possible over a long period of time and to then see how they feel about something or everything in the rack. See what I am saying? If product bias was really viable for making a point as it pertains to this thread then this thread wound not be so long, super long just like every other thread like it. You wanna tell us how your measurements helped your setup and what you hear as a result then bravo. If not then why even bother. You may even discover lots of people who have commonalities and share your opinions and learn something from them. The flip side of that coin is I can do the same and find people who agree with me and have similar experiences to mine and I can learn from them and them from me. Isn't that a bit more realistic?

You have plans for a homemade amp for your surround rig?

I think your reading too much into what I am saying too, I dont really think product bias does not exist, I was in sales for 14 years and I know for a fact it does. I just don't think its reasonable to use it to say "All differences among cables are product bias" since no one has ever proved they don't affect the sound of your equipment.

[kareface]

And for the end user it all boils down to using your ears to decide what makes you happy. We are talking about listening devices for musical enjoyment right? And hey, if you or anyone else wants to do blind testing when making decisions then right on man. But I don't think its very realistic for some of these guys to say stuff like "All cables sound alike" or my favorite "Its your responsibility to provide proof" like we are in a classroom doing a science experiment and we must use scientific protocol and etiquette.

The reason we use evidence and facts as a basis for finding the most accurate representation of reality is because it's show to be the most effective method, in or outside of the classroom. I don't mind if you don't adhere to the Socratic method but that doesn't mean anyone has to respect claims made outside of that realm. If I make the claim different labels on water bottles changes the taste of the water I'm obliged to support that claim with evidence. People ask for evidence because you're making a claim that isn't substantiated. If you don't want people to ask you for verification you should stop propagating misinformation.

Hey Kareface, the only reason people bring up product bias in a cable thread is to use it as some kind of tool for convincing people all cables sound alike when we both know the mention of product bias can be introduced only as a theory since you don't have information on everyone and every piece of equipment.

Holy facts batman. I also don't know that there isn't a leprechaun hidden under every possible rock, however I still don't believe in leprechauns. Secondly product bias doesn't prove that cables sound identical, you are making a silly straw man here. Product bias proves that we are capable of perceiving differences that might not exist at the source. I don't have to disprove that every possible combination of hardware when used in conjunction with specific brands of cabling produce different results anymore then I would have to check under each rock to prove there's no leprechauns. I'm not responsible, nor anyone else for that matter, to disprove a claim that hasn't met the burden of evidence. If and when you can provide the evidence to support the claim I'll be happy to catch some lucky charms, but until then all you are doing is spreading baseless information.

Its a circle jerk. It doesn't really have any bearing since it can neither be controlled or tested in a reasonable fashion as it pertains to the discussion.

No, it can't be controlled to your liking. You can easily setup a DBT and it has been done before, but when the results are contrary to your expectations you ignore the results and chock it up to the test or the people involved. It's ironic really, because if the test results were different you'd be waving them around to support your case, rightfully so. The tests have been done, if you don't agree with them you're welcome to fund your own study, just make sure a creditable 3rd party is responsible for the criteria of the test.

What is it that you want? Everyone to study up on electronics and buy some equipment and test every available aspect of their stereo equipment and to then make decisions only based on that information and fully disregard what they hear?

I've told you several times now that I don't calibrate by measurement alone, and that knowing what you like and how it's represented in the measurements of a room is a valuable piece of knowledge. Why do you propagate this false impression that the pro-reality crowd only wants shackle the listeners as if we'll force everyone to listen to some standardized average of what we expect to be ideal. You seem to like exaggerating things because this has nothing to do with anything that I've said and instead of repeating myself I'll just have you go back and read exactly what I typed. This time try to keep in in context.

Don't you think if that were reasonable, completely effective, and always worked then more people would be doing that and spending less time here posting in a 13 thousand 5 hundred plus thread posting about a topic that is no closer to some kind of solution or agreement than it was on the first page???

Again, you are outright lying about others expectations of the cable crowd. Don't be so dramatic.

I'm telling people not to worry about things they cannot or will not control to forget blind testing as it is confusing and often in audio does not have much to offer to choose a group of familiar music and listen to it as much as possible over a long period of time and to then see how they feel about something or everything in the rack. See what I am saying?

What I'm saying is that's all well and good as long as you don't then proceed to make claims that have no basis in reality. The reason the thread made it to 1300+ pages is the continued propagation of misinformation by people like yourself. You're welcome to your opinion but when you propagate it, you'll be subject to silly things like facts.

If product bias was really viable for making a point as it pertains to this thread then this thread wound not be so long, super long just like every other thread like it. You wanna tell us how your measurements helped your setup and what you hear as a result then bravo. If not then why even bother. You may even discover lots of people who have commonalities and share your opinions and learn something from them. The flip side of that coin is I can do the same and find people who agree with me and have similar experiences to mine and I can learn from them and them from me. Isn't that a bit more realistic?

That would be a non-sequitur. One doesn't necessarily relate to the other. Product bias exists, it doesn't matter if people are willing to accept it, it's there. The length of the thread has nothing to do with the value of the arguments, only the willingness of people to disregard them. I don't really care what you personally do with your cables. I'm only interested in the public understanding, the informational zeitgeist. You are welcome to your opinion on any subjective matters, but you aren't welcome to your own facts. I don't like it when anyone makes stuff up, no matter what it's in regard too. If this was a bottled water forum I'd be making the same arguments.

Edit: This is also something I've seen commonly when people run out of points. You instead turn to "we'll have our opinions and you'll have yours". You are always welcome to your own opinions, but you don't get to have your own facts. If you want to personally believe something, more power to you. However don't expect to express an opinion during a public discourse and not expect to be challenged. You don't have a right to your own facts, and the fact is the differences you claim to hear don't exist as far as reality is concerned.

[Pano]

OT personal remarks removed.