I don't believe cables make a difference, any input?

[rdf]

Originally Posted by doug20

lmao, so want to play the "how little you know" card against me but you will support the snake oil cable companies that offer zero science.

That's it? No scientific citations, a denial of peer review requirements in science, fabricating claims that I support cable manufacturer ad copy, and all the while doing this in the name of science? You do more damage to it than I.

[simon7000]

Originally Posted by Steve Eddy

Not intentionally it wasn't. And the key phrase here is "used to."

Every one of the components I have here have the listing sticker on the chassis itself, not on individual parts inside.

Well sure. There's tons of stuff coming from China these days that's fake in more ways than UL stickers.

But I can assure you that the UL sticker on my 1976 Pioneer integrated amplifier is not fake. Nor were they fake on millions of other pieces of similar equipment both at that time and today.

Bottom line, your claim that two prong consumer gear is allowed because very little of it is listed is simply ********.

se

Steve,

UL813 Covers commercial equipment
UL6500 Covers Musical AV stuff
and UL60065 Covers most consumer AV gear.

As to hot chassis the heat only started getting limited in the 70's. You still have caps to chassis on a lot of listed gear but the maximum current allowed is much lower. You also have to use listed caps for that connection. Before it was assumed that the standard .01 wasn't important, as that became .1 in some designs you saw lethal levels of 5ma. If the caps failed even the .01 could kill.

I just pulled Ashly, TOA, Sony and AKG gear, only the Sony had a UL number, and the category was, no surprise, consumer that does not require the safety ground!

The UL requirements for consumer gear are diluted because so many manufacturers do not participate.

So don't compare Apples to Sonys.

[Steve Eddy]

Originally Posted by simon7000

UL813 Covers commercial equipment
UL6500 Covers Musical AV stuff
and UL60065 Covers most consumer AV gear.

UL60065 covers consumer, commercial and professional equipment. UL813 and UL6500 are being phased out and will be withdrawn on May 1, 2012, supplanted by UL60065.

The UL requirements for consumer gear are diluted because so many manufacturers do not participate.

********.

se

[simon7000]

Originally Posted by Steve Eddy

********.

se

Ah so vocal, but that may be why I am seeing so many more ETL labels. manufacturers shop too.

Of course the query was why are there problems with ground noise, not what is changing.

[Steve Eddy]

Originally Posted by simon7000

Ah so vocal, but that may be why I am seeing so many more ETL labels. manufacturers shop too.

Yes, I'm reminded of that every time I see some cheap piece of **** from China.

Of course the query was why are there problems with ground noise, not what is changing.

Our exchange began with your ******** claim that "The two prong on consumer gear is allowed because very little is "Listed" (I.E. UL approved)..."

And that's where I'll leave it end.

se

[auplater]

Originally Posted by rdf

That's it? No scientific citations, a denial of peer review requirements in science, fabricating claims that I support cable manufacturer ad copy, and all the while doing this in the name of science? You do more damage to it than I.

hmmnn.. the thread title implies that the claims of "cables making a difference" is false, then asks for any input. All you've ever put up is that those accepting this status quo, that is, competent well made inexpensive cables don't make a significant difference relative to stuff like, oh, speaker placement, xover structure, age related hearing loss, etc. ad infinitum, have failed to prove that they don't make a difference???

And you seem to feel this is a supportable position?

Unfortunately for you, the ball's in the court of those making the extraordinary claims... otherwise, you've joined the ranks of "sound bite" statistics as purveyed in the popular press... and feeble attempts to impune others' credentials and perspectives rather than provide concrete evidence supporting the alternative looks pretty silly.

John L.

[simon7000]

Originally Posted by Steve Eddy

Our exchange began with your ******** claim that "The two prong on consumer gear is allowed because very little is "Listed" (I.E. UL approved)..."

And that's where I'll leave it end.

se

Yes that is where you jumped in. I don't know how you have followed the UL standards on audio gear. At one time the only professional audio amplifiers to meet the standards were Rauland's. This got a few more people on board. The current standard has been through half a dozen revisions. It is based on the much more precisely written but more tolerant IEC standard.

Some items dropped are the use of an extra layer of insulation between the primary and secondary of power transformers, test voltages of more than 1410 volts peak (1000V RMS sine wave), the unguarded level out of an amplifier used to be 25 volts now it is 120 for pro and 71 for others.

Of course since the standard costs just a bit under $500 most folks will never see it.

If you don't think standards don't change due to manufacturers pressures I assume you don't sit on any standard committees.

I stand by most consumer gear does not have a UL label. But then I have asked the question what do you think is the most widely manufactured and copied piece of gear ever made? Hint it is not UL listed!

[Steve Eddy]

Originally Posted by simon7000

I stand by most consumer gear does not have a UL label.

Then the house I live in must be HIGHLY unusual because so far I've yet to find a piece of consumer gear in it that's NOT UL listed. ALL of it using two prong plugs.

From my 1976 Pioneer integrated amp, to a 1980's Pioneer laserdisc player, to my brand spankin' new DishNetwork DVR/receiver, and everything in between including TVs and boom boxes.

se

[SY]

Originally Posted by rdf

That's it? No scientific citations, a denial of peer review requirements in science

Once more- the people making the claims have ZERO published data in any peer-reviewed journal. Or are you still trying to put forth the bizarre notion that the burden of proof is not on the ones making extraordinary claims?

I'd best not take a walk in the woods- it's still grouse season.

[cbdb]

Am I naive? I thought UL (CSA up hear) was mandatory for all consumer electrical equipment. (the government was trying to protect us... never mind I am naive).