I don't believe cables make a difference, any input?

[gedlee]

Originally Posted by rdf

Science doesn't rest on anecdotes.

I am confused. Which side are you one?

[bwaslo]

Originally Posted by gedlee

Lot's of good stuff is "made" in China, as long as it is designed somewhere else.

Earl, I'm pretty sure the Authlxl guy is doing his own designing (though the word 'designing' might be a little overstated for lots of class D amps, since this is a chip amp and probably based largely on the TI reference design -- he did design the SMPS power supply together for it, though, which is no mean feat). It is a decent board design and intelligent layout as far as I can tell, and it works quite well. We're both old enough to remember making fun of "cheap japanese junk" back in the 60's, and "rice burner" cars... and see how that turned out!

[DDF]

Originally Posted by gedlee

Bill, you didn't read what I said - I don't think. Lot's of good stuff is "made" in China, as long as it is designed somewhere else. I work for a Chinese manufacturer, spend one week a month there. They can make things, but as far as engineering goes all they can do is copy. and not knowing what's important they usually don't get that right. I was contacted when their "copy" didn't work. They had no idea how to design this product from scratch, all they knew was how to take one apart, copy the drawings that they stole and simulate it on thier bootlegged software. But that still didn't make it work. I had to show them, how to "engineer" it.

I've been a lead designer for fiber optics gear made in China, a project lead/project mgr for fiber optics gear made in China, I've moved a production line to China and have been either a contractor with Chinese mfg or a customer buying from Chinese manufacturing. Based on my years doing this, my experiences echo gedlees: China will build exactly what you tell them to, warts and all. Their design acumen is way behind the west's and their value add is usually only with high volume, low mix. High mix, low volume, they fall down.

This will change over time but they don't have any where near the same capability that the Japanese had when they took over the auto world. Japanese engineers are very much into accountability. Chinese engineers, not so much. It's quite shocking actually. This will hold them back for years.

I've also bought a few less expensive Chinese designed audio pieces. Junk, all of them. I've had to correct numerous obvious design flaws, they didn't even copy the designs correctly.

[gedlee]

My experience exactly. I see the young engineers play games, watch movies, generally not do much at all. They are not motivated to learn, let alone to excel. Completely different than the Japanese. But make no mistake about it, my view is not racism, my wife is Chinese, but she is from Hong Kong. That's a vast difference. The problem is entirely cultural not racial.
The cultural revolution set them back far more than they even realize and likely far more than any of us realize. For ten or more years education was forbidden. Then, when it ended, they had to start the university system back up from scratch because it had been completly devasted. Now I read about how the government supports educational systems, but with no accountability. They are just cranking out the students and getting the Gov't subsidies for each graduate. Everyone passes, no matter what. The level of the education is very low and even the students recognize it. The degree has no meaning at all.

[DDF]

Originally Posted by gedlee

My experience exactly. I see the young engineers play games, watch movies, generally not do much at all. They are not motivated to learn, let alone to excel. Completely different than the Japanese. But make no mistake about it, my view is not racism, my wife is Chinese, but she is from Hong Kong. That's a vast difference. The problem is entirely cultural not racial.
The cultural revolution set them back far more than they even realize and likely far more than any of us realize. For ten or more years education was forbidden. Then, when it ended, they had to start the university system back up from scratch because it had been completly devasted. Now I read about how the government supports educational systems, but with no accountability. They are just cranking out the students and getting the Gov't subsidies for each graduate. Everyone passes, no matter what. The level of the education is very low and even the students recognize it. The degree has no meaning at all.

There's nothing racist about it. In fact, I was astounded when I visited china how little ownership and responsibility most of the engineers took (a small percentage were wonderful, but marginalized).

I conferred with some of my colleagues, wondering if I just hit a bad batch. No, in fact, there are even books written about the cultural differences that go right back to the divine right of kings, apparently. As I'm told, the divine right of kings eventually mutated into a culture wide "emperor has no clothes". If the emperor is divine, he must be perfect, and so they pretended. Eventually pointing out mistakes became bad form and the cultural norm became CYA. Or so I'm told.

I had a $xx million contract on the line and I finally had to tell one slacker that his complete lack of engagement stood between our company and that payoff (and I wasn't kidding). Money, he understood, he delivered more in the next 8 hours than the previous 8 days. However, I had "called him to the carpet" and that was serious no-no in Chinese culture.

Now I work for a Japanese company and they call it like it is. Bull gets zero traction, and I love that about it. No wonder Japan are such winners in high tech.

I subscribe to Jack Welch's theories on successful management: "candour".

[gedlee]

The thing is that I just could not understand how these guys called themselves "engineers" until I asked about college. When I found out that all that was required was attendance, everyone passes, it became obvious. When there is nothing on the line what's the point in working hard. This guy also said that there was no point in trying hard because the profs didn't know the material either. SO working hard is one thing, being able to do the job is another.

[KBK]

I've seen Chinese 'cargo cult' come up with the showing of entire bought parcels of land, factory layouts and designs, with all attached royal treatment and major percentages of companies, etc....if you would only come over and show this technology. Please, bring the knowledge, bring the engineering, bring us the lore.

And kill all other manufacturing of that particular product in the rest of the world, in the process - and kill all those jobs. About 20k+ people in Europe and the US would loose their jobs, in less than 5 years, if this was done. All for a few million $ for one man. He'd even kill his own company and future in Canada, in the process.

I convinced the man not to do it, I illustrated the conflict and the result - clearly. When he saw (projected forward in time) the result, the dream of a quick buck left him. It left him with his honesty and integrity intact. Nothing against China or the people there, whatsoever. Just not this particular time or project/technology, is the case.

[soongsc]

Originally Posted by gedlee

My experience exactly. I see the young engineers play games, watch movies, generally not do much at all. They are not motivated to learn, let alone to excel. Completely different than the Japanese. But make no mistake about it, my view is not racism, my wife is Chinese, but she is from Hong Kong. That's a vast difference. The problem is entirely cultural not racial.
The cultural revolution set them back far more than they even realize and likely far more than any of us realize. For ten or more years education was forbidden. Then, when it ended, they had to start the university system back up from scratch because it had been completly devasted. Now I read about how the government supports educational systems, but with no accountability. They are just cranking out the students and getting the Gov't subsidies for each graduate. Everyone passes, no matter what. The level of the education is very low and even the students recognize it. The degree has no meaning at all.

Some of my far relatives from China do study abroad. I guess we al know the reason. But hey, this only means they need good teachers, which is a plus for people that are looking for teaching positions. I would really be nice to teach in a different country every few years.

[soongsc]

Originally Posted by gedlee

The thing is that I just could not understand how these guys called themselves "engineers" until I asked about college. When I found out that all that was required was attendance, everyone passes, it became obvious. When there is nothing on the line what's the point in working hard. This guy also said that there was no point in trying hard because the profs didn't know the material either. SO working hard is one thing, being able to do the job is another.

This happens in any country. I remember back in the 80's, and "engineer" from LA came to TX to work on an AD10 used for flight simulation, spend a week or so trying to figure out why the plane would not maneuver. I walked him through some simple tests and found out he had the analog input scaling all wrong.

[soongsc]

Originally Posted by gedlee

The thing is that it's a continuum with cables at, perhaps, an extreme. But to me there are very few who are as analytical about sound as I am. I don't even believe amplifiers make enough difference to worry about. How many people believe that!

Amplifiers have been measured to perform differently when connected to different speakers. But of course, whether it's enough to worry about is more a personal issue. I think each designer will just have to decide for himself, and let the consumers decide for themselves. There were many time some people caught problems in listening tests that I did not detect, but were later measured to occur randomly.