I don't believe cables make a difference, any input?

[EC8010]

Does anyone have any thoughts about measurements of loudspeaker cables? I've just just replaced 1.5m of 1.5mm diameter twisted pair enamelled copper wire with the same length of twisted 1.5mm fine silver in PTFE sleeving. The blasted stuff sounds better, and I'd like to know why. I've been wondering about a waterfall frequency response at the loudspeaker terminals.

[Steve Eddy]

Originally posted by EC8010
Does anyone have any thoughts about measurements of loudspeaker cables? I've just just replaced 1.5m of 1.5mm diameter twisted pair enamelled copper wire with the same length of twisted 1.5mm fine silver in PTFE sleeving. The blasted stuff sounds better, and I'd like to know why.

Could be any number of reasons, up to and including purely pscyhological effects. So if you TRULY want to know why, then the first step is to establish actual audibility. Short of that would be nothing but speculation and speculation doesn't answer questions. It's just the first step toward an answer.

se

[Circlotron]

How about if you soldered the output pins of your Gainclone chip or whatever right onto the speaker driver terminals? Would that not be considered the ultimate? Ultimate in low cost anyway. How could anyone reason that this approach would be undesirable, sound-wise?

[mrfeedback]

My question is: what do those of you that have perfected your systems to the point that the difference between copper and silver are discernable; listen to as a program source?

Just about anything from 60's through to present.
When the system is sitting nicely and clearly, just about any music sounds good.
For example, the other day I bought a copy of 'Canned Heat - On The Road Again'.
This track on most systems is an ear bleeder.
Sure the recording is revealled as not fantastic, but it is the music that gets through without additional system embellishment, and this allows it to be entirely listenable, and heel tappingly enjoyable.
I have plenty of other recordings that sound rotten on other systems, but on mine sound as good and as musical as they can be.
Rough sounding systems can cause sounds that clash with the program, clean and clear systems let the music through without adding ear grating harshness.
Some of these discordant sounds are attributable to discordant sounding materials, others due to amplifier load behaviour - low inductance LSP wire helps here.
Power sourced via pleasant sounding conductors can make a strong improvement.
I have devised a method that 'filters' discordant sounds, and preferentially allows sounds that we regard as chordant or musical through, and this adds the icing on the cake.
With my systems, there is no such thing as tinnitus inducing discordant sounds.

Eric.

[Steve Eddy]

Originally posted by Circlotron
How about if you soldered the output pins of your Gainclone chip or whatever right onto the speaker driver terminals? Would that not be considered the ultimate? Ultimate in low cost anyway. How could anyone reason that this approach would be undesirable, sound-wise?

Well, I suppose one could argue that while you've eliminated a loudspeaker cable, you now have to make up for it with a much longer interconnect cable.

So I guess it would depend on which of those two cables one feels is the most important. Which could arguably be the interconnect seeing as it's handling lower level signals and will have at least one more gain stage that comes after it unless your power amp is just a follower.

It's rather like the law of conservation. You can't gain something somewhere without giving up something someplace else. Ultimately one has to strike a balance that works for them. Which will not necessarily work for everyone else.

se

[JOE DIRT®]

from what I get from this thread is....lets just wire up the transformer to the speaker and blow it up and then we will get an actual REAL sound of a live performance and even get the smoke show for free....come on guys.... This is not NASA....It`s DIY.....good cabling and sound practice works for everyone

DIRT®

[mcp]

Seems quite a bit has transpired while I was away. I was celebrating my silver anniversary yesterday, so my apologies to everyone for not replying sooner.

Thomas, thank you for your kind words about my site.

What is becoming apparent in this post is a division amongst members over subjectism and objectism. This in itself is not unhealthy.

What is, very often in audio circles, is the intolerance they have toward each other. The obvious outcome of this intolerence is hostility, and it is this hostility that discourages members who are in their infancy in audio from persuing their passion further. I am sure none of us have that intention, but nontheless, the impression given is less than inspirational.

My participation in this forum is simply to share my knowledge so that new members can be better prepared and hopefully don't have to go through the difficulties that I had to. I have no need to prove myself in debates because I have a business and a family to attend to. In the end, what really matters to me is making a living by doing what I like. With customers paying me up to S$40,000/- for an amplifier, I don't think I am doing that badly.

[Steve Eddy]

Originally posted by mcp
What is becoming apparent in this post is a division amongst members over subjectism and objectism. This in itself is not unhealthy.

What is, very often in audio circles, is the intolerance they have toward each other.

No, that's not it at all. At least as far as my involvement in this thread. It's not about subjectivism versus objectivism. It's about those who try and pass the two off as if they were both one and the same.

se

[taufern]

i will be one to admit that there is probably differences among cables...are they audible...i dont think so unless we're talking about extreme cases like superconductors and stuff along those lines...i have done listening tests with el cheapo 5 dollar interconnects and some medium cost 70 dollar monster cable interconnects...i notice nothing...now maybe i dont have "high quality" cables or working around airplanes have jaded my hearing...i take hearing tests twice a year in the navy and have no hearing loss (yet hehehe) i am very picky but not to this point...if we're talking about hundredths or thousandths of an ohm of resistance change...i'd almost guarantee you that not a single one of us could discern between cables...or if copper was used instead of ofc then everyone could automatically tell...tell what??? their buddies how much money they wasted on cables...but thats just my opinion...im not trying to add fuel to the fire but my ears dont discern...



dipoles to the rescue

[ThorstenL]

Koinichiwa,

Originally posted by ThomasLMcLean

I have heard the story of the copper crystals. I have even peered through a microscope and carefully made drawings of copper crystals with bark inclusions and the layered borders. I have also measured current a couple hundred electrons at a time and signals in the micro volts. The nature of copper was never one of the problems.

Well, I have to take your word. If you are familiar with HFN and Ben Duncans work than perhaps you can explain better than the concept of "milli/micro-volt diodes" what causes the various effects he documented in cables?

I remember one particulary interesting test where a 5m single loop of cable was measured using a comprator system and wideband noise (output from the cable minus the input to the cable, adjusted for the RLC parameters of the cable in situi) and the subtracted signal showed, depending upon the cables (all commercial units) anything from -100db to -70db, or translated into percentages 0.001% to 0.03% distortion, this distortion BTW being not present with a simple sinewave when measured as timple THD.

Whatever the real reasons for these effects is, I have heard at least two reasonable explanations (Ben Duncans Microvolt Diodes and Pierre Johannets MDI) and interestingly both BD and PJ take note of a sensitivity of the effects to the conductor metal. I have to go with Baker Street Resident SH/CD - "The explanations fit observed fact".

Originally posted by ThomasLMcLean
I guess I agree with electronic Zen Master Pass: Better to spend your money on matched pairs then magic metal wires. (This is, of course, is a paraphrase). The next best thing to buy is a good oscilloscope. Magic comes in Blue leds, polished wood, turned aluminum panels (like old Ferraris), and other world heat sinks

How did money spend on cables come into a discussion of the chemical and physical properties of metals? This is what really pisses me off. Whenever the "objectivist" fraction feels they wish to end an exchange with a "victory" they dig this "don't spend money on cables" chestnut out.

This is a DIY Board. Most people here probably make their own cables (to varying degrees - from taking an off the schelf piece of coax and fitting plugs to the rather extreme measures I take) and for many here it is probably interesting to understand at least the basic theories on potentially negative effects in audio cables advanced and the proposed measures to combat these.

It is interesting that in general there seems an agreement (among those who actually research the subject) that solid core wire is preferable to stranded wire and that in certain conditions silver is preferable to copper, especially where the bare, uncoated wire is exposed to air (oxygen and other contaminants). The Dielectric properties of insulation material are generally well understood too.

Now if and how audible all this is I will readily agree gives reason to debate and I shall again recommend to anyone interested in a basic test to obtain some Category 5 or better Computer Network Cable (Trunk Type with solid copper conductors - beware, copperclad steel and aluminum have been reported, also there are stranded versions of the wire - you want solid copper conductors).

Using this cable simply take pairs out of the Cable to make up some interconnect cables using inexpensive, nickelplate, plastic cover RCA's from Radioshack (most goldplated connectors are gold over Nickel or Gold over silver over Nickel - nasty combinations).

Then make a set of Speaker cables, simply tightly braiding 4 equal length of Cat 5 and in order to avoid excessive capacitance and making the comparison unfair by making a very low inductance cable wire in each of the 4 pcs of Cat 5 Cable all the 8 indiviual wires together and connect the resulting 4 "Litzwire" sections in starquad using the cheapest Radioshack Spade connectors (these are goldplating over copper) and crimping the connection VERY HARD before soldering.

The resultant interconnect and speakercables are sufficiently similar in RLC Parameters to generic interconnects and 12-Gauge "Speaker" wire that a direct comparison is fair.

As the Cat 5 Cable is normally Copper in PE insulation the key differences between the proposed "test" cables and generic Radioshack "Goldpatch" interconnects and generic transparent sleeve Radioshack 12 - Gauge will be the absence of stranding of the individual wires and the slightly lower DA dielectric.

Note, I do not claim that either the Interconnect or the Speakercable made from Cat 5 cable as noted above are in any way exceptionally good, but they provide a good method of comparison. In my experience the difference between the various cables is quite audible, refitting the entire signalpath (all Interconnects and Speakercables) maximises the contrast. Re-wiring a system consisting of CD-Player or Digital Processor, Preamplifier, Poweramplifier and Speakers with a 3m Pair of speakercables and 2 1m Pairs of interconnects should be accomplished for around 20 Bucks or a little above that.

In fact, for a reality-check, anyone with expensive commercial cables using stranded conductors is also invited to make the comparison. Do your test any way you like, but be honest about your reactions.

Sayonara