SY said:
From a logical point of view, wouldn´t relying on blind tests without sufficient positiv controls also qualify for the "gasbag category" ?
@ rdf,
human beings are different; while i truly don´t like for example the ABX protocol, it seems that others are able to reach incredible sensitivity levels with that procedure, see for example the description by Paul Frindle in his AES Convention Paper.
The bottom line is to ensure by positive controls that listeners were not "half deaf" under test condition (better say, to make sure that they reach the highest thinkable sensitivity level for the task).
To avoid certain unusual conditions in a test situation may shorten the learning curve, but after an extended training period normally most listeners will be able to adopt even to these unusual conditions, but the experimentator has to test this by using positive controls.
I would disagree about the fast A/Bing thing just from a personal perspective. Again I made very small hard to distinguish manipulations to photos for a living. I have been experimenting and mixing music for much longer and this involves the same sort of manipulation. The senses have the ability to sort of settle in, adjust, or acclimate to the differences making them near impossible to spot otherwise.
For instance different people calibrate CRT and LCD monitors so that pure white is at very very different values. There is warm white - which looks similar to the headlights on a car that look yellow. There is sort of a medium white - the more white looking headlights. And there is also cool white or native white point - those god awful blue headlights that blind you. Now without A/Bing your mind actually settles in and adjusts to these differences making all three seem white relative to the other colors in the spectrum but they are all measurably different. It's hard for you to even see that one is a little yellow and one is a little blue without A/Bing but then the contrast makes the differences very obvious.
So what type of details does A/Bing obscure now? I haven't heard one tangible argument or real thing that it actually obscures. Just people making claims that it does with no explanation of what it is masking or hiding.
For instance different people calibrate CRT and LCD monitors so that pure white is at very very different values. There is warm white - which looks similar to the headlights on a car that look yellow. There is sort of a medium white - the more white looking headlights. And there is also cool white or native white point - those god awful blue headlights that blind you. Now without A/Bing your mind actually settles in and adjusts to these differences making all three seem white relative to the other colors in the spectrum but they are all measurably different. It's hard for you to even see that one is a little yellow and one is a little blue without A/Bing but then the contrast makes the differences very obvious.
So what type of details does A/Bing obscure now? I haven't heard one tangible argument or real thing that it actually obscures. Just people making claims that it does with no explanation of what it is masking or hiding.
Steve Dunlap said:
Depends on what you mean by "measure the same." Simple frequency response, distortion, and gain? No. Add in noise, overload recovery, headroom, microphonics, and stability and you'll be hard-pressed to tell them apart strictly by ear.
Overload is still the Achilles' Heel of many phono stages, and it often shows up in unexpected ways (especially with noisy records and popular cartridges with astounding ultrasonic resonances).
Scott,
What is a BAF? No, seriously. I assume it is an Audio Festival?
I just am not very familiar with any of the audio get together activities, not much of a group joining person I guess.
The kit you speak of, I assume you mean the pens and paint for driver modification? If so, might not be good in a large group setting, just because of how time constrained hand EnABLing actually is. And, if I was working on drivers I have no experience with, I would need some very quiet time to explore them for resonance zones and a computer to provide me with appropriately sized patterns, so I actually placed the EnABL patterns in a useful position. As DLR pointed out, this is a very driver specific process, same general event for all drivers, but the devil is right there awaiting a detail.
For baffle control, that could be done in a group setting event. I would only need to know peripheral dimensions for the baffle and have a simple hand calculator, a paper cutter and appropriate material to use for application of the patterns. We haven't yet looked for resonance zones on baffles, so that will not be an issue, yet.
If BAF is out of WA state I would need plane fare as I am quite pinched financially, since transformers have been in recession since the second quarter of 2007 and still are not flourishing.
Bud
What is a BAF? No, seriously. I assume it is an Audio Festival?
I just am not very familiar with any of the audio get together activities, not much of a group joining person I guess.
The kit you speak of, I assume you mean the pens and paint for driver modification? If so, might not be good in a large group setting, just because of how time constrained hand EnABLing actually is. And, if I was working on drivers I have no experience with, I would need some very quiet time to explore them for resonance zones and a computer to provide me with appropriately sized patterns, so I actually placed the EnABL patterns in a useful position. As DLR pointed out, this is a very driver specific process, same general event for all drivers, but the devil is right there awaiting a detail.
For baffle control, that could be done in a group setting event. I would only need to know peripheral dimensions for the baffle and have a simple hand calculator, a paper cutter and appropriate material to use for application of the patterns. We haven't yet looked for resonance zones on baffles, so that will not be an issue, yet.
If BAF is out of WA state I would need plane fare as I am quite pinched financially, since transformers have been in recession since the second quarter of 2007 and still are not flourishing.
Bud
analog_sa said:
Analog_sa according to me if one can't hear a large difference between an old Sony DVD player and a Wadia CDP then there is something serious wrong, let alone the difference between a Behringer and a Krell. I only sort of blamed the speakers not to suggest that 2/3 of the listeners had no clue what a hi-fi should sound like.
SY said:
'Fast' was in contrast to long term listening and familiarization before a change. At the risk of further belabouring the obvious, I know a blind test can be structured in such a manner. The point was I haven't seen it done. If that's incorrect feel free to post the switching times used in your favourite cable tests. Group events in which a tester with a proclaimed position there are no differences group tests individuals who, after a discussion on the matter, agree with him can be ignored.
And are you really equating the certainty of statistical perceptual tests with those of thermodynamics? I'm not so brave.
Jakob2, interesting guy. Which paper did you have in mind? What little I've quickly read of his notions on the importance of jitter and interfaces makes me wonder about the reception he'ld get here.
- Status
- Not open for further replies.