It's the way the software works. Don't ask me about software, I'm thoroughly ignorant.
He will then go on to claim that the non-mundane difference he can measure confers pathogenic qualities on the cable - thus fulfilling his self fulfilling claim that there are no audible differences between non-pathogenic cables.
There is so much faulty logic in this thread that I now consider it a source of entertainment rather than serious debate.
I took it that those were all covered by LCR differences. After all, chokes and transformers are basically Ls with smaller parasitic Cs and Rs. But I'm not aware of a cable myself which was designed to be a signal processing device.
Impedances generated by ferrites generally go up into the 100s of ohms, not much higher than a couple of k. But their magnitude isn't the issue here, its whether you've included such cables in your 'mundane' category or not. Its very unlikely you've never used such a cable, just not so likely you've used one as an audio interconnect. For example, the notebook I'm using now has a ferrite built into its power cord.
Its not a contentious issue to my knowledge so this page at Belden's site will give you the low-down. Transfer impedance is a quantitative measure of the cable's ability to reject impinging EM fields, so perhaps you implicitly included it when you cited 'poor screening'.
Shield effectiveness Transfer impedance
Hello RDF
Oh boy! Look at the FFT instead. If I close the measurement loop and do a Sine sweep I get the same basic measurement. I wasn't posting it as a "oh look how bad this cable is", someone asked so I did a quick measurement and frankly I didn't think it was horrible at all. Just another case of a cable not adding anything that wasn't already there.
Hello John
After a couple of measurements I see what you mean. Thanks for pointing it out.
Rob
Hi,
AJ vd Hul is just scraping the surface of what goes on here. There's more, much more.
I'll repeat it once more: many years ago I posted an animated gif file showing electron migration and crystal growth due to voltages applied to a conductor.
This research was done at the same department AJ vd Hul has had parts of his testing done and where I have my info from.
Whether these effects are audible or not remains to be seen but at least they're measurable and show that cables change over time, that manufacturing processes have an impact on the conductor and so has storage and so on.
All of the above led to the development of A.J. v/d Hul's carbon fibre based cables and concurrently to our development of the purest possible silver and gold conductors.
We knew why and so did a major American manufacturer. Our instructions for manufacturing were basically the same as those for the medical industry.
According to Mr. Kuhn, time will tell....
Cheers,
AJ vd Hul is just scraping the surface of what goes on here. There's more, much more.
I'll repeat it once more: many years ago I posted an animated gif file showing electron migration and crystal growth due to voltages applied to a conductor.
This research was done at the same department AJ vd Hul has had parts of his testing done and where I have my info from.
Whether these effects are audible or not remains to be seen but at least they're measurable and show that cables change over time, that manufacturing processes have an impact on the conductor and so has storage and so on.
All of the above led to the development of A.J. v/d Hul's carbon fibre based cables and concurrently to our development of the purest possible silver and gold conductors.
We knew why and so did a major American manufacturer. Our instructions for manufacturing were basically the same as those for the medical industry.
According to Mr. Kuhn, time will tell....
Cheers,
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This was noted long ago abraxalito. Any previously unconsidered effect, once demonstrated possible, gets claimed. If you go back through the thread some still insist to the brink of meltdown a cable-induced oscillation isn't audible, nor potentially is the FR variation due to, say, speaker cable inductance into a low impedance or Zobel'ed tweeter. Granting any point knocks too much stuffing from the straw man.
Robh3606, that's what I saw. I couldn't correlate the IM spectra with your THD vs. FR. Far from demonstrating no effect, if accurate those measurements really are a demonstration of "oh look how bad this cable is".
Robh3606, that's what I saw. I couldn't correlate the IM spectra with your THD vs. FR. Far from demonstrating no effect, if accurate those measurements really are a demonstration of "oh look how bad this cable is".
Well it varies with the ferrite material, but we can safely say this isn't going to affect anything in the audio band. Generally the losses will be felt above 1MHz.
That was the series impedance that I quoted you. No shunt conductance to speak of as these ferrites are around the exterior of the cable.
In general I think audiophiles don't like ferrites. Some say they make a harsh sound, not listened to any differences myself. I wouldn't use them on speaker cables because at the currents involved there, there might be non-linearities down into the audio band, but they might have applications for interconnects, especially digital ones.
Actually, a Firewire external soundcard I've been borrowing has clip on ferrites for the Firewire cable and the wire from the wallwart. I couldn't measure or hear any difference with the ferrites there, but I'll bet they're helpful in some situations.
Speaker cables? Maybe, if you're living right in the main lobe of a 50kW transmitter. I wouldn't be surprised if some amps that are designed to have ridiculous bandwidths could also benefit.
Speaker cables? Maybe, if you're living right in the main lobe of a 50kW transmitter. I wouldn't be surprised if some amps that are designed to have ridiculous bandwidths could also benefit.
Hi,
Not really but the use of Naim amps can fall into the category of amps that aren't stable under all conditions.
Playing the devil's advocate that would translate into cable upsets amp...Hence, cable test invalid and I tend to agree.
OTOH I submitted myself to hundreds if not thousands of all kinds of tests over a period of 25 years or more.
I can confidently state "I perceive" differences.
Cheers,
Not really but the use of Naim amps can fall into the category of amps that aren't stable under all conditions.
Playing the devil's advocate that would translate into cable upsets amp...Hence, cable test invalid and I tend to agree.
OTOH I submitted myself to hundreds if not thousands of all kinds of tests over a period of 25 years or more.
I can confidently state "I perceive" differences.
Cheers,
What did you measure? In the work I'm currently doing developing active speakers, a simple THD test does not show anything particularly untoward yet I'm definitely hearing something way above hearing thresholds. So I'm forced to conclude that THD tests aren't sensitive enough. Not yet sure what will find it, but I know its there because I hear it. And no, I haven't ABX'd myself yet
Yep, it will be a trade-off. I think Martin Colloms has noted in the past that amps can be sensitive to RF ingression into the ground terminals of their speaker outlets.
Right, I wasn't quite explicit. They're not sensitive enough to pick up some audible differences, but they work just fine to pick up non-linearities in the audio band transfer function.
No, that can't be it. Argument still stands if I drop the word 'simple'
Right, because the THD measures around -80dB 2nd harmonic and I'm sure that would be a very quiet thing, if audible at all above masking.
More than possible, I'd say strongly probable. Working hypothesis is my most recent hobby horse - noise modulation from RF (or alternatively RF-based intermodulation, take your pick). Which is why I think ferrites might well make an audible difference.
Hi,
Audiophiles, people that actually listen to music, not measurements, have all kinds or preferences related to what they feel is musically correct.
The use of ferrite coils on interconnects or speaker cable, while measurably benificial outside the accepted audio bandwidth seem to have a negative impact way down to what's assumed as audible.
The list of what's assumed audible or not is endless, power cords are just one of them....
Cheers,
Audiophiles, people that actually listen to music, not measurements, have all kinds or preferences related to what they feel is musically correct.
The use of ferrite coils on interconnects or speaker cable, while measurably benificial outside the accepted audio bandwidth seem to have a negative impact way down to what's assumed as audible.
The list of what's assumed audible or not is endless, power cords are just one of them....
Cheers,
Thanking members for the participation and ideas in this thread. Almost 15000 posts certainly covered the topic enough. Unfortunately too much of a baggage thread also, steadily creating animosity, high maintenance, and penalties for years now. This is the end of this thread, by DIYA's official will. No offspring threads please. Take care, and thanks again.- Status
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