Fullrange IB with Dipole Sub

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hey all...ive been rotting out here in the middle of the indian ocean for operation iraqi freedom and i cant wait to get back to my new speaker projects...i am really thinking about doing some more dipoles i.e. a dual 15" dipole sub with a either a fullrange Infinite box on top or a two way dipole or infinite box on top...i imagine something similar to chops' dipole sub enclosure with maybe a baffle suspended from the ceiling and time aligned if it is a two way suspended panel...so here are the requirements...

1. of course very detailed and precise imaging on and off axis...i love sitting in a room and listening but i also want to be able to walk around or listen from the kitchen...but cost cant be too incredibly high...i've already decided on the dipole sub design so im really just looking for ideas on the midrange 100hz and up baffle...

2. Volume...i really love to crank it up (who doesnt???) and these speakers will handle all kinds of music...rock jazz chicago blues funk soul harder rock classical and anything in between...i'd like to find something detailed yet wont completely lose itself at high volumes

3. price...since i am in the military i dont have huge amounts of cash but i know deals are to be had...i've been checking out the smaller fostex units i.e. 4-5" but dont know if they'd give me the volume i need maybe the fe166 looks like an option...so price shouldnt exceed 500 bucks for the upper panels (including x-over if any at all which will be a series type so keep that in mind)

4. I will be driving these speakers (for now) with a denon 3803 receiver as the preamp with an OMC 2 channel amp i scored from my dad (thanks man that amp rocks)...i have a pretty damn nice creek cd player but that can be changed as i will have a little cash sitting around when i get back but i will eventually look towards building my own amps but power available is about 100 watts or so into 8 ohms.

5. the subs can be part of a 3-way series x-over but i have not decided this for sure yet...i'd like to keep it a two way with a sub...

hope this is enough info for you guys to help me start brainstorming...dave i hope you have some input i know you're good with fr's
 
thanks chops i was hoping you'd give some input...i am kind of worried about the effectiveness of that speaker in an open baffle or Infinite box because of its q but i really only need it to behave from 100hz and up...but i think i would prefer a driver not much larger than 6" to prevent beaming as the fe206e's have a reputation of having a narrower soundstage...but let me know how your 206's turn out im extremely interested
 
how about one of the seas coax units...does ANYBODY have any experience with them if so what are their limitations...the idea of a time aligned woof tweet already done for me turns me on something fierce but then i wonder what happens when i really want to crank it and what kind of lobing this would produce...just another suggestion
 
Seas Coaxes

I use the Seas Coaxes in my car in custom fiberglass kickpanel enclosures, So i CAN tell you that they are good, but this is definitely not the type oof environment you will be using them in, so my input may not really apply to you. I'll say that they are extremely natural sounding, and have excellent dispersion.
 
I have used a Fostex FF85k in my open baffle and even this small speaker fixed me to a sweet spot only 50 cm wide. Now I use a very small d´Appolito System as a midrange-and-up-system in the same configuration. You won´t get this german system ( http://www.speakertrade.com/site/products/proddisplay.php?product=Mmhe ) in the USA, but this little MHE 280 Mark 2 has a by far better horizontal dispersion. So if you like to walk around while listening you should consider a two-way-approach for your midrange-and-up instead of a Fullrange speaker.
 
the seas coaxes definitely seem like an interesting choice...maybe a series xover might not work for these...if i did i'd have to go with a 3rd order series xover and ive never built anything higher than 2nd order series x-over...i could go active but once again i have never built an active filter...maybe some ideas on where to get started could help me get through it but for the moment i want something close to or on level with the phoenix but i'd like to save some cash at the same time...the two way upper panel almost seems like a must now that i talk about it...does anybody know where i can find formulas for driver displacement...i.e. with this size driver at this frequency it has to move this far to produce 100db...as i would rather have a single driver covering from 100hz to maybe 2500hz or so and with slope the tweeter would be high passed on a 1st order series network at around 5000hz or so...the mid will probably be a little lower to compensate for baffle step at the same time...just ideas here guys...once again i'd like to keep it as simple as possible (thus the 1st order series xover) so i guess i really need drivers 6.5" or around there to be able to have low distortion wide dispersion and natural roloff if possible...ive been looking at some of the eton units perhaps the long throw 7" at madisound looks like an option...tell me what you guys know about this speaker and others similar to these characteristics
 
the b17 6.5" driver from PHL over at zalytron looks like a good pick...take a look and tell me what you think...super high efficiency for a driver that size...

http://zalytron.com/

also the axon 6s3 and the usher audio technology 7" might be a winner...if i had an extra 3 grand i could afford the raven r3 but i guess ill have to wait til a rich relative kicks the bucket...maybe a pair of the raven r2's would work i guess i could extend my budget a little bit...tell me what you guys think about this and maybe the possibility of a ribbon tweeter that can be crossed over a little lower and sounds outstanding...i already know of the neo 8 and havent really been pleased with the lack of extension on the highend
 
frugal-phile™
Joined 2001
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An open baffle really deserves a good full-range, but if you want extension and be able to play it loud, you might want to move the XO frequency up a bit -- and as low as it is even then this deserves an active XO.

I've got some big baffles coming on-line. These will be for outside and i'll make them so i can swap in all sorts of drivers.

I'd suggest some of the old vintage alnico that is designed for OB use but you might have touble achieving the volume levels you want. Maybe a set of Adire HE10.1s would do the job?

dave
 
well then dave i guess im stuck with a two way for the upper range panels...i guess ill have to go aperiodic or infinite box then...what do you guys think about the ravens...maybe an electrostat or a magnepan will have to do the trick...any suggestions guys im all ears...i want a balanced soundstage...not anything too bright...i like the openness of dipoles but only if theyre done right...i think i might just have to build a passive panel like on linkwitz's site and go from there...after some long thinking i'd like to keep the xover point low because that way i can use the dipole subs for future projects as well...maybe the phl 6.5" drivers with a r2 would do me quite nicely...i just want something that will go loud cleanly and accurately and not be just another mediocre setup...help me out here guys you always have info for me...
 
Koinichiwa,

taufern said:
hey all...ive been rotting out here in the middle of the indian ocean for operation iraqi freedom and i cant wait to get back to my new speaker projects...i am really thinking about doing some more dipoles i.e. a dual 15" dipole sub with a either a fullrange Infinite box on top or a two way dipole or infinite box on top...

Hartley build such a system with the Concert Master. This has a dipole 24" Woofer and an attached sealed enclosure with a 10 Inch "Fullrange" and a 7Inch "Tweeter".

The resultant behaviour of a moderate sealed box 10" Fullrange with a dipole Sub (and likely some overlap between Dipole and Monopole) makes for a rather nice directionality down to fairly low frequencies and with a Baffle around 30" wide and around 45" high and an 8" active cone the front radiation should remain controlled to an angle of around 160 Degrees from between below 200Hz and up to past 1.5KHz.

However, I suspect if the dipole Woofer is crossed over with a simple 1st order lowpass the dispersion will be modified and be much more cardiodic up to the point where the attenuation of the Woofer comes very large.

To make something similar with modern drivers, maybe Eminece Legend B102 might suit as "fullrange" - it is low Qt and hence needs some form of rear load.

http://editweb.iglou.com/eminence/eminence/pages/products02/pdf/legb102.pdf

Using a sealed rear load of around 30 Liter will give the B102 a resonance of 70Hz with a Qt near 0.5 (IIRC).

An Eminece Kappa 18 Woofer is a nice affordable choice for a dipole (A friend uses it to good effect), especially if driven via coil with some notable DCR to push up the Qt.

http://editweb.iglou.com/eminence/eminence/pages/products02/pdf/kap18.pdf

The Kappa may still need an active Amp to compensate the Dipole rolloff and match sensitivities, but I think I would keep any X-Over to first order any which way.

Adding a tweeter to B102 is clearly needed, I personally would likely just modify a Dual Piezo Horn, but many other options exist.

Sayonara
 

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okay so here is what im really thinking about now...the PHL 1230 looks really promising...probably two in parallel crossed over around 2300-2700 Hz 2nd or 3rd order series crossover to a raven r1 or esg2. i'll probably put the phl's in some sort of an aperiodic enclosure or infinite box...thats the combo for now because i think i'd lose a few db efficiency from the enclosure so i think the units would mesh really well and would have extremely high efficiency...this would be running from around 100hz and up crossed over to a dipole sub...tell me what you think peeps.
 
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