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Multi-Way Conventional loudspeakers with crossovers

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Old 9th November 2009, 12:27 AM   #1
Borat is offline Borat  United States
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Default some DSP questions ( FIR )

in another thread:

Can't Reproduce a Square Wave.

i expressed my concern to John K that "fixing" phase response just once around the whole speaker system may not work the same way as "fixing" phase response of each driver individually and then properly combining them.

John seems to think that it is the same. Myself i don't know. So let's figure it out.

Let's start by asking some questions:

1 - can FIR filter fix the impulse response of a system that is NOT minimum phase ? in other words can a FIR filter be used to restore a system that is not minimum phase back to minimum phase ?

2 - lets say a midrange is a minimum phase device and a tweeter is a minimum phase device. but when their output is combined - is it guaranteed to be minimum phase ? what if the drivers have massive phase roll and/or physical offset ?

let's get some input on this and we'll take it from there.

John - what's your take on this ?

Last edited by Borat; 9th November 2009 at 12:35 AM.
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Old 9th November 2009, 01:53 AM   #2
Key is offline Key  United States
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In another thread Ferrit37 linked me to these which explain what can be done with impulse responses.
The video on this page explains it well
http://www.eaw.com/technology/propri...nnessFocusing/

http://www.eaw.com/info/EAW/Technica...Whitepaper.pdf

Here is what I did last night to approximately linearize my monitors' PR.

Approximate normal FR and PR
http://img10.imageshack.us/i/aproximatefrpr.png/

Approximate Offset
http://img4.imageshack.us/i/aproximateoffset.png/

Approximate Convolved Speaker output
http://img195.imageshack.us/i/vstconvolve.png/

See the thing I am attempting here is to offset the phase distortions introduced by the Linkwitz-Riley filters in my monitors - which leaves the PR at -180 and +180 at the crossover frequency.

I do not think you could do this for each driver isolated, only for the combined output of your speakers.

Another link of interest Frontiers

Last edited by Key; 9th November 2009 at 01:55 AM.
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Old 9th November 2009, 02:45 AM   #3
gedlee is offline gedlee  United States
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John was correct. Now figure out why you thought he wasn't and correct that thinking.

Quote:
1) can FIR filter fix the impulse response of a system that is NOT minimum phase ? in other words can a FIR filter be used to restore a system that is not minimum phase back to minimum phase ?
Yes, an IIR filter can't, but an FIR can.

Quote:
2 - lets say a midrange is a minimum phase device and a tweeter is a minimum phase device. but when their output is combined - is it guaranteed to be minimum phase ? what if the drivers have massive phase roll and/or physical offset ?
No it is not guaranteed to be minimum phase, but it can be. It all depends on the specifics, there are no generalities in this regard. But, as John knows, I'm not big on "minimum phase". It's a convenient concept for some situations in signal processing, but not required. And there is no reason to believe that it has anything to do with sound quality. The ear is not minimum phase!
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Old 9th November 2009, 05:20 AM   #4
Borat is offline Borat  United States
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this whole business made me realize that its been quite some time since i actually had to think about things.

my brain feels almost like your body would if you tried walking after a year in coma or perhaps in space.

i should be charged with criminal neglect for not exercising my brain. i need to get back in college somehow or something.
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Old 9th November 2009, 07:14 AM   #5
Borat is offline Borat  United States
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gedlee View Post
Yes, an IIR filter can't, but an FIR can.
ok what Wikipedia is telling me is that an inverse of non minimum phase system is unstable.

think of a system whose impulse response consists of two impulses - one at time zero and one delayed by t. what kind of signal can we feed into it so we would get only one impulse at the output ? i thought about it and here is the answer: we need to feed an infinite series of impulses alternating between positive and negative. this way everything cancels except impulse at time zero.

then i did more thinking about it and realized that if the second impulse in the impulse response is larger than the first then the series must be ever increasing which is an impossible condition to meet ( instability ).

the reason Gunness could do what he did for EAW is because the signal he was inverting had one property - the "echo" in the phase plug or "resonance" in the cone and horn was ever decreasing. this made the processing stable.

however in a general case ( for example two speakers separated by time delay but of equal loudness or with delayed speaker being louder ) it seems inverting such a system is impossible.

what do you say to that Geddes ?
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Old 9th November 2009, 01:37 PM   #6
gedlee is offline gedlee  United States
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Borat View Post
think of a system whose impulse response consists of two impulses - one at time zero and one delayed by t. what kind of signal can we feed into it so we would get only one impulse at the output ? i thought about it and here is the answer: we need to feed an infinite series of impulses alternating between positive and negative. this way everything cancels except impulse at time zero.

what do you say to that Geddes ?
The question is ill posed. You should say "what kind of a prefilter would make the dual impulse response system (as you posed above) look like a single impulse response system. That's easy, a filter with a second impulse inverted from the second impulse in the system being corrected. This filter will then correct ANY signal. This is called echo cancellation - its done all the time.

But the real point for us, is that this correction can only be done at a single point in space, or electrically where there is no spatial aspects. Correcting a echo in the acoustic domain CANNOT be done globally, only at a point. And consider what happens at other points, where the second impulse is delayed from the first by a different amount. At these points I now have three impulse in the impulse response because the prefilter has added one that now does not line up with the second one because the time delay is different. This is precisely why I say that acoustic "room correction" is a waste of time and will likely only make things worse not better. (It is conceivable that a correction filter like this could make a really bad loudspeaker better, but this would never occur in the general case.
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Old 9th November 2009, 11:55 PM   #7
Borat is offline Borat  United States
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gedlee View Post
But the real point for us, is that this correction can only be done at a single point in space, or electrically where there is no spatial aspects. Correcting a echo in the acoustic domain CANNOT be done globally, only at a point. And consider what happens at other points, where the second impulse is delayed from the first by a different amount. At these points I now have three impulse in the impulse response because the prefilter has added one that now does not line up with the second one because the time delay is different. This is precisely why I say that acoustic "room correction" is a waste of time and will likely only make things worse not better. (It is conceivable that a correction filter like this could make a really bad loudspeaker better, but this would never occur in the general case.
let's not get ahead of ourselves. yes 3 dimensional reality is a nightmare. let's clear 1-dimensional issues out of the way first.
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Old 10th November 2009, 12:03 AM   #8
Borat is offline Borat  United States
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gedlee View Post
The question is ill posed. You should say "what kind of a prefilter would make the dual impulse response system (as you posed above) look like a single impulse response system. That's easy, a filter with a second impulse inverted from the second impulse in the system being corrected. This filter will then correct ANY signal. This is called echo cancellation - its done all the time.
let me see if i get what you're saying. you want to cascade prefilter with the system such the combination is unity. in other words your prefilter is the inverse of the system.

you claim that a positive impulse followed by a negative impulse at a time t will realize such a prefilter ?

i don't think so.

i mean if one impulse goes in one should come out but is that what will actually happen ?

after the prefilter you will have one positive and one negative pulse going into the system. the positive one will convolve with positive in system to produce the desired output. then negative impulse will convolve with positive just as the positive is convolving with the second positive resulting in cancellation - so far so good ! now comes the problem - the negative impulse now convolves with the second positive of the system resulting in unwanted negative at the output.

are we talking about the same thing here ?
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Old 10th November 2009, 12:10 AM   #9
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Are you trying to correct the magnitude and phase response of each driver so that they sum acoustically as the crossover design expects? Or are you trying to correct for the time offset due to non-coincident acoustic centers?

The driver itself shouldn't generate reflections. Only the cabinet and the room should do that. Where are the two impulses coming from?
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Old 10th November 2009, 02:12 AM   #10
gedlee is offline gedlee  United States
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Borat View Post
i don't think so.

are we talking about the same thing here ?
Yes, we are. And I think that you will find that what I am saying is correct, or at least I think that it is correct. Its precisely what an echo canceller does. But I would have to think about this being in the time domain rather than the frequency domain. A quick review of Fourier transforms would answer the question, but its late here.
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