Been gone for a few years. Recently came back to discover that a thread about speaker connections has generated almost 7500 responses. There's a thicket of loopy esoterica concerning something called EnABL (the name alone really fails the smell test for catchy commercialeze vs straightforward DIY idea exchanges). Not to pick on that one too much. There're probably many other similar "ideas" here. EnABL was just the nearest one bobbing on the surface when I returned to take a look in the forum. There are so many forums out there. What attracted this to Diyaudio?
There seem to be increasing numbers of members with commercial bait (links to their moneymaking ventures) dangling from their signatures. You know who they are. That they don't share their designs openly with the community is perfectly reasonable. It's a business venture. Nothing wrong with that.
But there was at least one thread, probably many more since I've only just glimpsed the surface of the new site, where one of these guys got into a tussle with Zaph over one of his designs and seemed, to me at least, to contribute at least a small part in driving him (and his type) away. This from a member who does not post his designs openly for community criticism/evaluation/use/celebration/contribution (why should he after all? He's making money on them. Perfectly justifiable. No?). What?
Is it just me? Anyone else think this forum has gotten a little disappointingly 'faith based' and sometimes self serving? Strayed a bit from it's former no-nonsense, more genuine spirit of do it yourself, nuts and bolts project sharing?
There seem to be increasing numbers of members with commercial bait (links to their moneymaking ventures) dangling from their signatures. You know who they are. That they don't share their designs openly with the community is perfectly reasonable. It's a business venture. Nothing wrong with that.
But there was at least one thread, probably many more since I've only just glimpsed the surface of the new site, where one of these guys got into a tussle with Zaph over one of his designs and seemed, to me at least, to contribute at least a small part in driving him (and his type) away. This from a member who does not post his designs openly for community criticism/evaluation/use/celebration/contribution (why should he after all? He's making money on them. Perfectly justifiable. No?). What?
Is it just me? Anyone else think this forum has gotten a little disappointingly 'faith based' and sometimes self serving? Strayed a bit from it's former no-nonsense, more genuine spirit of do it yourself, nuts and bolts project sharing?
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And BY ALL MEANS I hope that 99 percent of the members here are NOT offended by that little rant. I'm genuinely humbled by the wealth of resource contributed here by enthusiasts whose talent and knowledge far exceeds my own. I'm not suggesting anyone abandon ship. Who the hell am I?
Perhaps what I've noticed is simply inevitable. Any society has to deal equitably with growth, even some that is distasteful at times. That part of it that I've referred to just seems a little, well, distasteful. Not constructive at the very least. That's all. But there it is anyway.
Perhaps what I've noticed is simply inevitable. Any society has to deal equitably with growth, even some that is distasteful at times. That part of it that I've referred to just seems a little, well, distasteful. Not constructive at the very least. That's all. But there it is anyway.
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i recently started looking around after several years and noticed the same thing. still is quality information here, but you need to dig deeper to find it.
To me, the commercial side taking over it's a natural trend. It should be the owner's responsability to find and implement a model and a set of rules (aka "policies") to keep a certain (desired) profile and mission on track.
Scott Wurcer was suggesting a Free Software Foundation (FSF) model, which I agree it would probably be the best. But how such a model could be implemented and enforced, I don't know.
Could it also be that the more we learn and know, the higher the threshold for what we consider quality information becomes?
Sure, but often the problem here is the more we learn (from sometimes unreliable sources) and the more we think we know (but dont) the easier it is to state opions as facts, and that is not quality information. I read thread after thread about mods to comercial products that "sound great" but have no proof. Lay people start to think they know more than the EEs who designed the stuff and that kind of arogance gets you no where. There are some good mods but some mods I have seen actually make the circuit worse, but they still "sound so much better". There is an enourmous amount of quality info on this site, but there is just as much **. The problem has become finding the truth (with patience you still can).
My turn to rant.
I dont have a problem with people mucking about with there own equipment to get it the way they want it to sound, but being egocentric enough to think everyones system should sound like theres is what bugs me. Very rarely do I see people say "just my opinion but it sounds better TO ME". They think because they like the sound better it is better, even if they have just added a bunch of distortion.
You tripped over one of those ideas that is a big stretch for those with "rational" thinking, but this is one that has turned many into believers. No valid double blind tests have been executed (that takes a lot of resources), but single blind tests support a positive result. No one knows how it works, but some of the speculation drives some crazy.
All the info to try it is readily available.. just listen to it.
Given that technology has been given away by the inventor, it is hard to say he has a commercial motive.
dave
Actually, no-one has done a correct single-blind test, either. There's no real stretch to believe that painting stuff on a cone will change the sound- but there's no real blind test data showing that this "magic" pattern is any better than, say, ovals sized and distributed according to Fibonnacci numbers or whatever. I have my own hypothesis on the optimum pattern...
That said, Bud is clearly giving away what he believes to be correct, not keeping secrets and using the forum to lure in the curious for his profit. Having spent time with him, I have no doubt of his sincerity.
That said, Bud is clearly giving away what he believes to be correct, not keeping secrets and using the forum to lure in the curious for his profit. Having spent time with him, I have no doubt of his sincerity.
It might be argued, and argued convincingly on sound enough principles, that any one variety of canned soup used to fill your hollow speaker stands will prove sonically superior to another variety. Differing densities, dampening factors, heat dissipation, etc. Metal stalagmites on the speaker tops? Magic marker on your CD edges? No valid blind tests, and certainly no measured and documented values have ever been produced to show repeatable results that are of any use to a broader community.
There is no end to analogous applications of such faith in ideas. Look at the varieties of alternative "science" appended to medicine in such forms as naturopathy, chiropractic, herbalism, traditional Chinese medicine, Unani, Ayurveda, meditation, yoga, biofeedback, hypnosis, homeopathy, acupuncture, ect. I don't think it must be dismissive or antagonistic for one to say to another, "I believe that you believe in something, and that is fine if it works for you". Belive it or not, I'm not trying to pick a fight with anyone. Sorry about the EnABL example, especially if it works for you. But personally I've been pretty content to find sources of information on the net that are able to maintain a well reasoned, "rational" (repeating your own quotes here) community of thought. As far as medicine goes, I really do believe we blur those distinctions at our peril. Obviously, DIY audio is not to be taken as seriously. But the analogy is apt.
As for diyaudio, I only mourn the loss of one more "rational" source on the internet. That's all. Rationality still reigns here of course, and it may not be that you have to "dig deeper for it", but you certainly have to negotiate amid a lot more noise than is necessary, or very useful. Not trying to tell anyone how to think. Wouldn't dream of lobbying anyone to quiet any investigations of alternative science. Hell, all knowledge was once "alternative". But I'd prefer that it's present practitioners are not building the bridges that I drive on, or the aircraft that I travel in, and am a little sad that its defenders are increasingly attracted to this forum. Heck, could there simply be another section for this content? I have no problem with anyone just admitting that it's irrational. Extrarational? Place it in quotes if anyone's not comfortable with it.
There is no end to analogous applications of such faith in ideas. Look at the varieties of alternative "science" appended to medicine in such forms as naturopathy, chiropractic, herbalism, traditional Chinese medicine, Unani, Ayurveda, meditation, yoga, biofeedback, hypnosis, homeopathy, acupuncture, ect. I don't think it must be dismissive or antagonistic for one to say to another, "I believe that you believe in something, and that is fine if it works for you". Belive it or not, I'm not trying to pick a fight with anyone. Sorry about the EnABL example, especially if it works for you. But personally I've been pretty content to find sources of information on the net that are able to maintain a well reasoned, "rational" (repeating your own quotes here) community of thought. As far as medicine goes, I really do believe we blur those distinctions at our peril. Obviously, DIY audio is not to be taken as seriously. But the analogy is apt.
As for diyaudio, I only mourn the loss of one more "rational" source on the internet. That's all. Rationality still reigns here of course, and it may not be that you have to "dig deeper for it", but you certainly have to negotiate amid a lot more noise than is necessary, or very useful. Not trying to tell anyone how to think. Wouldn't dream of lobbying anyone to quiet any investigations of alternative science. Hell, all knowledge was once "alternative". But I'd prefer that it's present practitioners are not building the bridges that I drive on, or the aircraft that I travel in, and am a little sad that its defenders are increasingly attracted to this forum. Heck, could there simply be another section for this content? I have no problem with anyone just admitting that it's irrational. Extrarational? Place it in quotes if anyone's not comfortable with it.
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You will find that the rational thinkers post less and less. DIY Audio, like many audio sites, is pretty much a dumpster these days. Pick and choose. There are still some gems mingled among the garbage.
speaking only from personal experience, I've found that I come back less and less over time, not because I feel the quality of information has gone down, but because my NEED for information has dropped significantly. I don't really see this place as a dumpster, just a place with more people. The percentage of threads that are less rational doesnt seem to have gone up to me (but naturally, with the increase of people, the number very much has).
The issue with finding the gems unfortunately is the fact that many of the esoteric types will generally qualify a design merely by the amount of parts used and will be very proactive in venting that opinion. So I guess in a few years all we'll see here is full range loudspeakers on an open baffle running off of a SE triode fed by a NOS DAC, that's basically throwing about 60 years of audio engineering and innovation out of the window ...
Cheers,
Sander.
Cheers,
Sander.
Neither do I, but people with faith-based views don't like to utter those words. We tried the "separate section" idea and it didn't work very well. In my own view (speaking as a member, not a moderator), there was an unreasonable expectation that in that area, one's ideas and purported observations would not be subject to question. If you put on the white lab coat, tough questions come with the territory; fact-claims that are extraordinary will be poked and prodded unmercifully.
I still think that diyAudio is the best resource for rational and wide-ranging information. We won't censor anyone's nutty ideas, nor the questioning of them. For me, at least, that's a good balance between the "any claim without full DBT data will be censored" of some sites and "any mention of DBT will be censored" at others.
once upon a time there was a Pub .
now - that's multiroom Pub .
who is used to drink in his own Pub , he'll find adequate room ;
who is not so desperate - he will drink at home , alone ......
I was here primary because of informations ...... now ( when I know more , or just realize that will never learn ) I'm here because of ppl . not all ppl on DiyA (even thinking to know them all is insane ) but several of them are certainly worth of staying around .
PS. I know many more dreky places than this one ........
now - that's multiroom Pub .
who is used to drink in his own Pub , he'll find adequate room ;
who is not so desperate - he will drink at home , alone ......
I was here primary because of informations ...... now ( when I know more , or just realize that will never learn ) I'm here because of ppl . not all ppl on DiyA (even thinking to know them all is insane ) but several of them are certainly worth of staying around .
PS. I know many more dreky places than this one ........
you think this is bad, visit audiokarma.org
Speakers - AudioKarma.org Home Audio Stereo Discussion Forums
Speakers - AudioKarma.org Home Audio Stereo Discussion Forums
And I just thought you said "rational TINKERS" 😛
Sorry if this may offend some people
Sometimes it seems to me like theres much smothering to some people, which even includes vendors, some of whom in the end contributes with nothing much other than advertising their product, or at least nothing more than any other member around
Some have really managed the fine act of balance, as a vendor as well as active member
Others have failed
Those who stays vendors will ofcourse not have any such problems, mostly
To me, respect have to be earned, and ofcourse some really do deserve the highest respect in this regard, maybe even more than we are able to
Sometimes this place can be exstremely difficult, and often its just more easy to keep shut
I still dont know which to prefer, but I sure know which is easier
Nothings perfect I guess
But basicly, I think this is a very fine place
Cheers, and keep cool
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