Big Peerless woofer midrange performace - Page 4

MisterTwister · 5th November 2009, 10:47 PM

Here I tried to explain why FR is not as smooth as it may seem:
impedance and frequency response relation
My listening tests with various drivers confirm this assumption.
For example: http://www.madisound.com/catalog/PDF/seas/H511.pdf
looks smooth up to 3khz, in reality it has to be low passed around 500hz.

tinitus · 6th November 2009, 03:09 AM

The driver you show at first is Eminence Alpha-6A, right
We know that some people like it, so that ofcourse makes it a bit easier fore me to be positive about it
On the other hand I have no idea what other people hear or like

The rise, as you call it, I would prefer the word nervous
It may come from dustcap problems, maybe not
But I wouldnt rule it out so quickly
Maybe you need to learn how to coat a driver, or dustcap
I wouldnt be surpriced if this cheap driver reveals the most delicious midrange you have ever heard, after careful coating
You should try it some day
But again, some like a crisp sound, other cant stand that and want exstreme smoothness, which others may find too boring
Its often a personal thing

John Bsuch · 6th November 2009, 05:25 AM

Frequency domain information ... assuming it is generated with the same measurement methodology is a great tool.... except of coarse there are few... well ... next to zero standards. Different mics... chambers... electronics... distances... drive levels... software...and all the rest. I have purchased... measured and listen to hundreds of drivers over the years... and every one has surprised me in one way or the other. If properly implemented they all have their strengths and weakness. But you need to listen to them the way you intend to use them to truly know if what you have is viable for how you intend to use it. As for the Seas 26RE4... it was designed to be used with minimal or no crossover. And believe it or not... like it or not... it performs very well when used that way with a proper tweeter that has been properly implemented.

alspe · 6th November 2009, 05:59 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by panomaniac

but I have heard the Seas driver and it's an exceptionally good one. And it can be used with no low pass filter at all, if you are a bit clever with your tweeter.

Hi.

What tweeter have you had in your mind for this woofer? If you have thoughts. please share.

How about T25CF001? Or just Seas Prestige tweeter 27TDFC etc

We get fine phase responce if we can run top end 1. order slope. But if we run 2-3. order slope and woofer without XO, there's a lot of phase shift. Thoughts?

sidewaystothesun · 6th November 2009, 07:54 AM

The tweeter is a separate issue, and I haven't gone there yet. One thing at a time...

Is this thread going to morph itself onto tweeters? If it does, will the right people read it, given that it is called "Big Peerless woofer midrange performance".

Or should I start a new thread with a more relevant title?

Being a new boy (or fresher, as I think you would call me on the other side of the pond) I don't know enough about how the diyaudio community works...

alspe · 6th November 2009, 10:15 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MisterTwister

Here I tried to explain why FR is not as smooth as it may seem:
impedance and frequency response relation
My listening tests with various drivers confirm this assumption.
For example: http://www.madisound.com/catalog/PDF/seas/H511.pdf
looks smooth up to 3khz, in reality it has to be low passed around 500hz.

Could there be explanation in Le ?

P21RF/P has Fr to 3000 Hz @ Z=14 ohm. Le is 0,8 mH.
A26Re4 has Fr to 2000 Hz @ 26 ohm but Le = 3,4 mH.
I mean that A26's indutance is so big that it rolls off though its impedance rises?

Pano · 6th November 2009, 02:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sidewaystothesun

Is this thread going to morph itself onto tweeters?
Or should I start a new thread with a more relevant title?

Hey Sideways - you may be a "noob" here, but you are one of the most patient and reasonable I've seen. So don't worry about that part.

I say let the thread morph into the whole speaker project. You've got a good start already with just a few posts. The more replies a thread gets, the more it attracts. That's both good and bad, of course.

Choose one of the woofers mentioned here then the tweeter choice will be easier. If you choose the Peerless 12 or the Seas 10, John B (who posted above) can give you great advice. He has both of these drivers in use at the moment, as well as a stash of about 400 others. He is one of the best speaker designers I know. And he does it just for fun.

So choose a woofer, then figure out with our help which tweeter. Next comes the hard part, the crossover.

Just let us know the type of sound that you are looking for. Do you want a speaker that sounds like a speaker (most guys do) or one that gets out of the way? How big a box can you tolerate? What are your room size, listening distance, musical tastes, etc.?

I think you are on the way to a great classic 2-way speaker.

sidewaystothesun · 6th November 2009, 03:54 PM

Hi Panomaniac,

Well, here's the reason for my project.

John B has already had some of this information, in a private reply. This was only because he responded first, and I thought that was all I was going to get. I didn't know how this forum works...

I have just moved into an old cottage of indeterminate age (300 years or more, nobody knows). That's not unusual in the rural parts of the UK - they are all over the place. Anyway, it has stone walls about 3 feet think, a solid floor, small windows and a ceiling with solid oak exposed beams. Result: The bass stays in the room.

Size: 15' x 17' x 7.5'. Acoustics are good (you can hear this just by talking).

My current transmission lines may not be ideal - a bit fullsome, to say the least (I haven't set them up yet, we're still unpacking), but I just feel they will be over the top. So I've started thinking...

Hence my question about a closed box system. Something which might normally be regarded as on the "dry" side in the bass.

Why go for a big system? Well, my musical tastes are hinted at in my ID: "Sideways to the sun" - an old and obscure Horslips track. So I'm a celtic folkie at heart. But I like loads of other things too, and now and again I like to hear something big at a realistic volume. Mahler 1 for example.

If there is one thing I can't abide it is small systems trying to do what they inherently can't, and shouting at you instead. So I'm after a nice big old-fashioned 2-way with lots of headroom and good LF extension.

I would describe my desired tonal balance as a "peaches and cream", if that makes any sense.

But the speakers have got to live quite near to solid corner locations. This suggests a low Q, but I don't want to go too far...

There we are...

tinitus · 04:18 PM

Hmm, after reading your last post Im not sure this 2way will be what you really want

Maybe there are ways to make your TL more controlled
Maybe look at Hypex new 2way active plateamps with DSP
http://www.hypex.nl/
Im not sure whether their bigger models are ready yet

If building a new speaker I dont think you should design your own
Your post indicated that only the best will satisfy you
Maybe better look fore a proven design
http://www.troelsgravesen.dk/Diy_Lou...r_Projects.htm

sidewaystothesun · 6th November 2009, 04:26 PM

Hi Tinitus,

I actually do want a new project, and I've never done a big classic system.

I'm afraid I don't like the idea of DSP.

I want to build a "natural" system which is very simple and just works properly, all on it's own, whatever I hook it up to.

6th November 2009, 04:10 PM	#39
tinitus diyAudio Moderator Join Date: Nov 2005	Hmm, after reading your last post Im not sure this 2way will be what you really want Maybe there are ways to make your TL more controlled Maybe look at Hypex new 2way active plateamps with DSP http://www.hypex.nl/ Im not sure whether their bigger models are ready yet If building a new speaker I dont think you should design your own Your post indicated that only the best will satisfy you Maybe better look fore a proven design http://www.troelsgravesen.dk/Diy_Lou...r_Projects.htm Last edited by tinitus; 6th November 2009 at 04:18 PM.

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5th November 2009, 10:47 PM	#31
MisterTwister diyAudio Member Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: usa Blog Entries: 1	Here I tried to explain why FR is not as smooth as it may seem: impedance and frequency response relation My listening tests with various drivers confirm this assumption. For example: http://www.madisound.com/catalog/PDF/seas/H511.pdf looks smooth up to 3khz, in reality it has to be low passed around 500hz.

6th November 2009, 03:09 AM	#32
tinitus diyAudio Moderator Join Date: Nov 2005	The driver you show at first is Eminence Alpha-6A, right We know that some people like it, so that ofcourse makes it a bit easier fore me to be positive about it On the other hand I have no idea what other people hear or like The rise, as you call it, I would prefer the word nervous It may come from dustcap problems, maybe not But I wouldnt rule it out so quickly Maybe you need to learn how to coat a driver, or dustcap I wouldnt be surpriced if this cheap driver reveals the most delicious midrange you have ever heard, after careful coating You should try it some day But again, some like a crisp sound, other cant stand that and want exstreme smoothness, which others may find too boring Its often a personal thing

6th November 2009, 05:25 AM	#33
John Bsuch diyAudio Member Join Date: Oct 2007	Frequency domain information ... assuming it is generated with the same measurement methodology is a great tool.... except of coarse there are few... well ... next to zero standards. Different mics... chambers... electronics... distances... drive levels... software...and all the rest. I have purchased... measured and listen to hundreds of drivers over the years... and every one has surprised me in one way or the other. If properly implemented they all have their strengths and weakness. But you need to listen to them the way you intend to use them to truly know if what you have is viable for how you intend to use it. As for the Seas 26RE4... it was designed to be used with minimal or no crossover. And believe it or not... like it or not... it performs very well when used that way with a proper tweeter that has been properly implemented.

6th November 2009, 07:54 AM	#35
sidewaystothesun diyAudio Member Join Date: Nov 2009	The tweeter is a separate issue, and I haven't gone there yet. One thing at a time... Is this thread going to morph itself onto tweeters? If it does, will the right people read it, given that it is called "Big Peerless woofer midrange performance". Or should I start a new thread with a more relevant title? Being a new boy (or fresher, as I think you would call me on the other side of the pond) I don't know enough about how the diyaudio community works...

6th November 2009, 03:54 PM	#38
sidewaystothesun diyAudio Member Join Date: Nov 2009	Hi Panomaniac, Well, here's the reason for my project. John B has already had some of this information, in a private reply. This was only because he responded first, and I thought that was all I was going to get. I didn't know how this forum works... I have just moved into an old cottage of indeterminate age (300 years or more, nobody knows). That's not unusual in the rural parts of the UK - they are all over the place. Anyway, it has stone walls about 3 feet think, a solid floor, small windows and a ceiling with solid oak exposed beams. Result: The bass stays in the room. Size: 15' x 17' x 7.5'. Acoustics are good (you can hear this just by talking). My current transmission lines may not be ideal - a bit fullsome, to say the least (I haven't set them up yet, we're still unpacking), but I just feel they will be over the top. So I've started thinking... Hence my question about a closed box system. Something which might normally be regarded as on the "dry" side in the bass. Why go for a big system? Well, my musical tastes are hinted at in my ID: "Sideways to the sun" - an old and obscure Horslips track. So I'm a celtic folkie at heart. But I like loads of other things too, and now and again I like to hear something big at a realistic volume. Mahler 1 for example. If there is one thing I can't abide it is small systems trying to do what they inherently can't, and shouting at you instead. So I'm after a nice big old-fashioned 2-way with lots of headroom and good LF extension. I would describe my desired tonal balance as a "peaches and cream", if that makes any sense. But the speakers have got to live quite near to solid corner locations. This suggests a low Q, but I don't want to go too far... There we are...

6th November 2009, 04:26 PM	#40
sidewaystothesun diyAudio Member Join Date: Nov 2009	Hi Tinitus, I actually do want a new project, and I've never done a big classic system. I'm afraid I don't like the idea of DSP. I want to build a "natural" system which is very simple and just works properly, all on it's own, whatever I hook it up to.

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