The Ultimate monitor.... which one is better?

[chuck55]

The first is Zaph's ZD-5:

Zaph|Audio - ZD5 - Scan Speak 15W8530K00 and Vifa XT25

I don't know why Zaph thinks a 2nd order x-over is better than a 1st order? Could Jim Thiel be wrong?
Quoted here:
'But when everything comes together for a LR2 system, it's the sweet spot in speaker design. Why is it the sweet spot? Because the next step is no crossover at all in a full range driver, which is a step backwards, introducing a whole different set of problems that detract from good sound. "


So going with Zaph's argument, the next step is no x-over. Audio technology has such a driver:
Flexunits 5 H 52 15 06 SD

I spoke with them and they told me I could run the driver full-range and put a hi-pass x-over for the tweeter.

So what do you think?

Comments would be appreciated.

 

[sdclc126]

The next step is NOT a fullrange driver with no crossover - I think you're misinterpreting what Zaph is saying - he means that's going in the wrong direction.

You CAN run drivers without filtering, but you won't get the best performance. There are few if any drivers, fullrange or otherwise, than will not benefit from filtering.

As for the FlexUnits, I'd recommend searching the forum for projects/testing/feedback and see what others have to say about them.

As for the ZD5, it's probably up there with the best of the best, but personal taste is always a factor in design selection and satisfaction.

 

[Inductor]

Very nice chuck,
what's the next step?
There's a lot of work in front of you. (and I'm not talking about the money) The driver looks very good.

 

[TerryO]

This one bears watching, as it seems that it may be even better than the Exodus Audio "Kepler". While the exact price for components isn't possible, as the exact configuration of the crossover hasn't been finalized, this would be a very high-value design.

Here's some plots and current discussion:
Anarchy DXT Fun

Best Regards,
TerryO

 

[chuck55]

Inductor, Thanks for the interest. Per Audio Technology, the 4" Flex unit is $308 USD each. It can be run full range with no filter however power handling is a bit lower. Just need a tweeter with a 3rd order x-over.
I read a thread here about Morel and Dynaudio sounding slow or lacking life or something. Lots of people said they did not like them. This hit a chord with me as a big heavy cone will need more power and I can understand the slow/ heavy sound concept.
So I'm more leaning towards the Seas coated paper cones like Snell's K7/J7. They need 1/2 the power (50W vs 100W) which is more what I like as I don't play speakers loud and want the driver to come to life at lower volume levels. I'm sure the Morel and Audio Technology are nice, very nice, but not sure if they fit my listening style.
I've pretty much given up on full range single driver speakers as anything over 3" has terrible breakup modes which hurt my ears. And 3" lacks bass and clarity. I may have to bite the bullet and go with a x-over 2-way to get what I need. As Zaph says, full range are for people who are afraid of x-overs. That's me, as I realize I don't know what I'm doing designing an x-over. Problem is, Zaph gives no support and I am hesitant to put so much time and money into something which I may not even like and has little resale value.

So Inductor, what do you have for speakers?

 

[planet10]

I've pretty much given up on full range single driver speakers as anything over 3" has terrible breakup modes which hurt my ears. And 3" lacks bass and clarity.

An over generalization OMO, but assumming it is true, use the 3" as a mid-tweeter and add a woofer. XO is then low where it isn't as objectionable. With the mid-tweeter handling no bass, clarity sky-rockets.

dave

 

[J.R.Freeman]

So going with Zaph's argument, the next step is no x-over.

Mr. Krutke stated his position on no-crossover as being 'a step backward'.

 

[planet10]

He is entitled to his opinion.

dave

 

[chuck55]

So what do you recommend Planet10?

 

[gainphile]

There are drivers that from time to time is claimed to not needing to be low-passed. Vifa P13WH comes to mind.

The real world is a bit different though, as xo is not only dealing with frequency but polar response, distortion etc.

Zaph's design mantra stated:

All crossover slopes and frequencies are selected based on a driver's frequency response, linear and non-linear distortion and off axis response. Many people design only based on on-axis frequency response, and while this may result in a speaker with flat response, it still may not sound very good if a driver has excessive distortion within it's operating bandwidth or a poor power response. I will typically take a look at a driver's off axis response, power handling, all harmonic distortion up to 5th order, and a few other forms of distortion testing. Sometimes I'll get IMD plots and test at multiple levels. I also get in-room plots. There are a few forms of testing that I do not use, as they are merely derivatives of other types of testing. A cumulative spectrum decay is one such useless measurement, though I still collect them in my driver tests.

re: 1st order butterworth xo, their vertical response is pretty bad, that's why all the trouble of inventing linkwitz-riley xo.

An externally hosted image should be here but it was not working when we last tested it.

 

[planet10]

What do you want the monitor to do. What budget? (ultimate implies big budget -- i usually don't play in the stratosphere). What electronics?

dave

 

[TerryO]

Mr. Krutke stated his position on no-crossover as being 'a step backward'.

So taking this to the logical conclusion, a crossover is always a step forward?

Mr. Krutke has done a lot of measurements and formed opinions that certainly shouldn't be casually dismissed. However, there are other designers with as much experience in this field that don't necessarily agree with some of his opinions or the importance and priorities he may assign to certain aspects of a design.

Sense when have experts ever agreed on everything? When it comes to speaker design there are so many different compromises to be made that each designer will pick the attributes that "he" feels will accomplish the "goal."

Given the same drivers and working independently, would Nelson Pass, Phil Bamberg, Dan Wiggins or S. Linkwitz come up with the same speaker configuration, enclosure, crossover, etc., at the end of the day?

Best Regards,
TerryO

 

[Spasticteapot]

I'm currently working on building some monitors which are effectively commercial knockoffs - 1" dome in a waveguide, 7" woofer in a small sealed box used down to 70hz, and a high-output 12" sub in a sealed box for 25hz-70hz. I'm driving the whole mess with a DCX2496 and five channels of amplification, and will be trying various crossover options - though I think I'll likely be going with the very steep slopes DSP crossovers allow.

 

[planet10]

Mr. Krutke has done a lot of measurements and formed opinions that certainly shouldn't be casually dismissed. However, there are other designers with as much experience in this field that don't necessarily agree with some of his opinions or the importance and priorities he may assign to certain aspects of a design.

As an example, if one believes that Geddes work on distortion perception is valid, then Mr. K's great attention to distortion is not of much utility.

dave

 

[chuck55]

Planet10, well I have this .25 cu.ft. Parts-Express cabinet. Thinking of using a 40wpx Crown D-75 amp. Wouldn't want to go over $130 like Morel polycone drivers. FR from 50-15,000 hz. I lean towards to x-over at 5,000 running full-range like Epos or Eggleston vs 300 hz right in the middle of the vocal range.
What would I like it to do? Not irritate my ears like most hi-end nervous, twitchy, speakers. Not require 100wpc to come to life. I did think the FR-125 was pretty smooth but not a big fan of big Xmax drivers. Zaph's design look like too big investment for something unheard.

 

[gedlee]

As an example, if one believes that Geddes work on distortion perception is valid ...

dave

Hi Dave

So do you believe it?

Crossovers are evil - to be avoided at all costs - there is no such thing as a "good crossover", but some are better than others. But a system without at least one is simply not viable. More than that is asking for trouble.

 

[planet10]

So do you believe it?

Crossovers are evil - to be avoided at all costs - there is no such thing as a "good crossover", but some are better than others. But a system without at least one is simply not viable. More than that is asking for trouble.

Earl,

I agree with you on both points (and for a long time). There are some who relish the opportunity to jump on you when you assert the former thou.

dave

 

[planet10]

well I have this .25 cu.ft. Parts-Express cabinet. Thinking of using a 40wpx Crown D-75 amp. Wouldn't want to go over $130 like Morel polycone drivers. FR from 50-15,000 hz.

With those cabinets and that amp you aren't going to have ultimate anything, so i guess the goal is as good as you can get using what you have.

That ampp can get really "gritty" on the top end, you don't want a tweeter that is going to br ruthless with it.

I've a set of those boxes (which aren't bad at all for MDF), but cherry. I'm going to pop a set of FE166eN into them and try the Doc Bottlehead FAST system (XO at 125 Hz)

dave

 

[mattpwill]

Hi Dave

So do you believe it?

Crossovers are evil - to be avoided at all costs - there is no such thing as a "good crossover", but some are better than others. But a system without at least one is simply not viable. More than that is asking for trouble.

Out of interest, what is evil about crossovers, not considering crossover component quality?
Phase shift/spectral decay?
Even with using low Qs, are they still evil?

Thanks

 

[gedlee]

Out of interest, what is evil about crossovers, not considering crossover component quality?
Phase shift/spectral decay?
Even with using low Qs, are they still evil?

Thanks

Polar response - there is no way to cross over two non-coincident drivers without a serious degradation of the polar response. And there is no way to make really good coincident drivers, although some are not bad. The smallish horns in most coax cause serious degradation of the polar response mostly in the frequency range where it most matters.