The Ultimate monitor.... which one is better? - diyAudio
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Multi-Way Conventional loudspeakers with crossovers

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Old 19th October 2009, 11:13 PM   #1
chuck55 is offline chuck55  United States
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Default The Ultimate monitor.... which one is better?

The first is Zaph's ZD-5:

Zaph|Audio - ZD5 - Scan Speak 15W8530K00 and Vifa XT25

I don't know why Zaph thinks a 2nd order x-over is better than a 1st order? Could Jim Thiel be wrong?
Quoted here:
'But when everything comes together for a LR2 system, it's the sweet spot in speaker design. Why is it the sweet spot? Because the next step is no crossover at all in a full range driver, which is a step backwards, introducing a whole different set of problems that detract from good sound. "


So going with Zaph's argument, the next step is no x-over. Audio technology has such a driver:
Flexunits 5 H 52 15 06 SD

I spoke with them and they told me I could run the driver full-range and put a hi-pass x-over for the tweeter.

So what do you think?

Comments would be appreciated.
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Old 20th October 2009, 12:18 AM   #2
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The next step is NOT a fullrange driver with no crossover - I think you're misinterpreting what Zaph is saying - he means that's going in the wrong direction.

You CAN run drivers without filtering, but you won't get the best performance. There are few if any drivers, fullrange or otherwise, than will not benefit from filtering.

As for the FlexUnits, I'd recommend searching the forum for projects/testing/feedback and see what others have to say about them.

As for the ZD5, it's probably up there with the best of the best, but personal taste is always a factor in design selection and satisfaction.
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Old 20th October 2009, 12:19 AM   #3
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Very nice chuck,
what's the next step?
There's a lot of work in front of you. (and I'm not talking about the money) The driver looks very good.
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Old 20th October 2009, 01:25 AM   #4
TerryO is offline TerryO  United States
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This one bears watching, as it seems that it may be even better than the Exodus Audio "Kepler". While the exact price for components isn't possible, as the exact configuration of the crossover hasn't been finalized, this would be a very high-value design.

Here's some plots and current discussion:
Anarchy DXT Fun

Best Regards,
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Old 27th November 2009, 01:08 AM   #5
chuck55 is offline chuck55  United States
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Inductor, Thanks for the interest. Per Audio Technology, the 4" Flex unit is $308 USD each. It can be run full range with no filter however power handling is a bit lower. Just need a tweeter with a 3rd order x-over.
I read a thread here about Morel and Dynaudio sounding slow or lacking life or something. Lots of people said they did not like them. This hit a chord with me as a big heavy cone will need more power and I can understand the slow/ heavy sound concept.
So I'm more leaning towards the Seas coated paper cones like Snell's K7/J7. They need 1/2 the power (50W vs 100W) which is more what I like as I don't play speakers loud and want the driver to come to life at lower volume levels. I'm sure the Morel and Audio Technology are nice, very nice, but not sure if they fit my listening style.
I've pretty much given up on full range single driver speakers as anything over 3" has terrible breakup modes which hurt my ears. And 3" lacks bass and clarity. I may have to bite the bullet and go with a x-over 2-way to get what I need. As Zaph says, full range are for people who are afraid of x-overs. That's me, as I realize I don't know what I'm doing designing an x-over. Problem is, Zaph gives no support and I am hesitant to put so much time and money into something which I may not even like and has little resale value.

So Inductor, what do you have for speakers?
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Old 27th November 2009, 03:04 AM   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chuck55 View Post
I've pretty much given up on full range single driver speakers as anything over 3" has terrible breakup modes which hurt my ears. And 3" lacks bass and clarity.
An over generalization OMO, but assumming it is true, use the 3" as a mid-tweeter and add a woofer. XO is then low where it isn't as objectionable. With the mid-tweeter handling no bass, clarity sky-rockets.

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Old 27th November 2009, 03:39 AM   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chuck55 View Post
So going with Zaph's argument, the next step is no x-over.
Mr. Krutke stated his position on no-crossover as being 'a step backward'.
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Old 27th November 2009, 03:52 AM   #8
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He is entitled to his opinion.

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Old 27th November 2009, 04:58 AM   #9
chuck55 is offline chuck55  United States
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So what do you recommend Planet10?
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Old 27th November 2009, 05:10 AM   #10
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There are drivers that from time to time is claimed to not needing to be low-passed. Vifa P13WH comes to mind.

The real world is a bit different though, as xo is not only dealing with frequency but polar response, distortion etc.

Zaph's design mantra stated:

Quote:
All crossover slopes and frequencies are selected based on a driver's frequency response, linear and non-linear distortion and off axis response. Many people design only based on on-axis frequency response, and while this may result in a speaker with flat response, it still may not sound very good if a driver has excessive distortion within it's operating bandwidth or a poor power response. I will typically take a look at a driver's off axis response, power handling, all harmonic distortion up to 5th order, and a few other forms of distortion testing. Sometimes I'll get IMD plots and test at multiple levels. I also get in-room plots. There are a few forms of testing that I do not use, as they are merely derivatives of other types of testing. A cumulative spectrum decay is one such useless measurement, though I still collect them in my driver tests.
re: 1st order butterworth xo, their vertical response is pretty bad, that's why all the trouble of inventing linkwitz-riley xo.

Click the image to open in full size.
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Last edited by gainphile; 27th November 2009 at 05:18 AM.
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