So, i've been wanting to build a set of speakers for a while now (done several subs which have all worked well). I initially wanted to go with a single driver system both for cost and simplicity's sake, but i think my current setup and preferences would do better with a 2-way, and i have to power to drive speakers with crossovers (40 watts per channel @ 8 ohms).
But, i would still like to use relatively cheap drivers and simple crossovers
i was thinking one of these woofers:
Aurasound NS6-255-8A Aurasound 6.5" Woofer
or
Madisound 6102-8 6" Polypropylene Cone Woofer or the 4ohm version
or
Peerless 830657 6.5" SDS Woofer
with one of these:
Vifa BC25TG15-04 1" Textile Dome Tweeter
or
Alesis 1" Shielded Soft Dome Tweeter
or
Tang Band 25-302SH 1" Shielded Neodymium Dome Tweeter
going for pretty high efficiency, around 89-91 would be nice (ie the aurasound woofer with the tang band tweeter) or if you have other suggestions in a similar budget
any input would be great
But, i would still like to use relatively cheap drivers and simple crossovers
i was thinking one of these woofers:
Aurasound NS6-255-8A Aurasound 6.5" Woofer
or
Madisound 6102-8 6" Polypropylene Cone Woofer or the 4ohm version
or
Peerless 830657 6.5" SDS Woofer
with one of these:
Vifa BC25TG15-04 1" Textile Dome Tweeter
or
Alesis 1" Shielded Soft Dome Tweeter
or
Tang Band 25-302SH 1" Shielded Neodymium Dome Tweeter
going for pretty high efficiency, around 89-91 would be nice (ie the aurasound woofer with the tang band tweeter) or if you have other suggestions in a similar budget
any input would be great
You have some nice choices there. I would go with the Madison woofer, and Viper tweeter, only because they are similar to the BIC 62's which I own and enjoy. But that's just my opinion for what it's worth, I have no experience with the other drivers mentioned, just name familiarity. I do hope you'll post your results and let us know your final choice and how it sounds.
Good evening State,
May I ask - do you have any system goals regarding bass extension, and SPL?
Moving on for a moment, let's look at the drivers you are interested in. I would like to preface this by saying I haven't heard or tested any of those listed, and this is all speculation on my part and should be taken as such!
From the mid-woofers you've chosen, I am most interested in the Aurasound driver. From the datasheets, it appears to have the most extended top end response, which should make it easier to crossover to your HF unit. It also appears to have nearly the smoothest response of the group, though the granularity of the response curve is misleading. Also, it is quite sensitive.
The Madisound polypropylene driver looks very interesting, and I think it would have been my second choice. However, the part I'm worried about is its ragged response at the top end. It's (30 degree?) off axis response looks worse still, and I wonder if there are some diffraction issues happening as a result of that big gasket it comes with. However, I will say the Madisound unit looks like it would give you the deepest bass response. The Aurasound driver has a significantly higher Fs, and the distortion profile they've provided suggests it's running out of steam around that point and above.
The Peerless driver is nice looking, but I am worried about what looks to be a severe break-up around 4.5 kHz that may propagate to the left in the audio spectrum. Other than that, the in-band response looks to be nice and smooth. That flange may be an issue for mounting.
For the tweeters you've chosen I would pick the Vifa. The Tang Band has a wiggle in the impedance plot around 10 kHz that looks questionable. And the Alesis buy-out unit seems to have a horn style flange with a rather steep angle. To me, this appears as though it would only wreck your off-axis response and subsequently tarnish imaging, while providing little of the benefits associated with a horn-loaded dome tweeter, though again this is all just guessing.
Jim
Edit: Having said all that, you may find other budget minded drivers that would better suit your application. Have you seen the extensive driver reviews at ZaphAudio.com? Mr. Krutke's generosity in sharing his measurements and experienced opinions could save a lot of trial and error!
Edit again!: Having looked again at his site for a moment, the Dayton DA175-8 looks to be a nice performing, budget driver that would certainly give those mentioned above a run for their money.
May I ask - do you have any system goals regarding bass extension, and SPL?
Moving on for a moment, let's look at the drivers you are interested in. I would like to preface this by saying I haven't heard or tested any of those listed, and this is all speculation on my part and should be taken as such!
From the mid-woofers you've chosen, I am most interested in the Aurasound driver. From the datasheets, it appears to have the most extended top end response, which should make it easier to crossover to your HF unit. It also appears to have nearly the smoothest response of the group, though the granularity of the response curve is misleading. Also, it is quite sensitive.
The Madisound polypropylene driver looks very interesting, and I think it would have been my second choice. However, the part I'm worried about is its ragged response at the top end. It's (30 degree?) off axis response looks worse still, and I wonder if there are some diffraction issues happening as a result of that big gasket it comes with. However, I will say the Madisound unit looks like it would give you the deepest bass response. The Aurasound driver has a significantly higher Fs, and the distortion profile they've provided suggests it's running out of steam around that point and above.
The Peerless driver is nice looking, but I am worried about what looks to be a severe break-up around 4.5 kHz that may propagate to the left in the audio spectrum. Other than that, the in-band response looks to be nice and smooth. That flange may be an issue for mounting.
For the tweeters you've chosen I would pick the Vifa. The Tang Band has a wiggle in the impedance plot around 10 kHz that looks questionable. And the Alesis buy-out unit seems to have a horn style flange with a rather steep angle. To me, this appears as though it would only wreck your off-axis response and subsequently tarnish imaging, while providing little of the benefits associated with a horn-loaded dome tweeter, though again this is all just guessing.
Jim
Edit: Having said all that, you may find other budget minded drivers that would better suit your application. Have you seen the extensive driver reviews at ZaphAudio.com? Mr. Krutke's generosity in sharing his measurements and experienced opinions could save a lot of trial and error!
Edit again!: Having looked again at his site for a moment, the Dayton DA175-8 looks to be a nice performing, budget driver that would certainly give those mentioned above a run for their money.
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Wow, thanks for such a detailed response
As far as system goals, solid bass response only really needs to be to around 70-80 Hz, since i have a sub, but ideally they would reach lower, since my sub is an un-stuffed T-line and sounds better on the really low bass. but like i said, it works fine up to 70-80.
for SPL, i'm not really set on a number, but I've been trying to look for relatively high efficiency drivers to get the most headroom for regular listening and to get the highest SPL i can when i want to really crank it up (as of now, my sub easily overpowers my little yamaha bookshelf speakers). However, i would rather lose a few dB's and have a flatter response than to switch to cheap PA drivers that will get really loud but sound a lot worse.
i will definitely check out zaphaudio and that dayton driver. and do you have any recommendations for how to design the crossover for whatever i end up with?
thanks again
As far as system goals, solid bass response only really needs to be to around 70-80 Hz, since i have a sub, but ideally they would reach lower, since my sub is an un-stuffed T-line and sounds better on the really low bass. but like i said, it works fine up to 70-80.
for SPL, i'm not really set on a number, but I've been trying to look for relatively high efficiency drivers to get the most headroom for regular listening and to get the highest SPL i can when i want to really crank it up (as of now, my sub easily overpowers my little yamaha bookshelf speakers). However, i would rather lose a few dB's and have a flatter response than to switch to cheap PA drivers that will get really loud but sound a lot worse.
i will definitely check out zaphaudio and that dayton driver. and do you have any recommendations for how to design the crossover for whatever i end up with?
thanks again
Good afternoon State,
My pleasure! One of my favorite things to do with regards to speakers is what-if scenarios, however I am still a novice and as such I wouldn't feel right making recommendations on crossover design and the like. My own systems have enjoyed what might be called success at times, but as I am still learning, I tend to make a lot of scrap still!
From a system level, however, maybe there is an easier solution, unless you have your heart set on using one of those drivers. Can you tell me more about you subwoofer? It sounds interesting! So it's a transmission-line design that can play up to around 70 Hz, but you'd like to keep it under that ideally? Hmm so it sounds like you are after sound quality as a main goal, with enough SPL capability for moderate listening and good dynamics, is that correct?
Zaph|Audio - Bargain Aluminum MTM
Mr. Krutke's "Bargain Aluminum MTM" design looks like it might fit the bill, and the parts aren't too expensive. It's a little more for the mid-woofers as what you were looking to spend before, but not a lot more. It uses the Dayton DA175 (2 of them per side) which appears to be selling at Parts Express for about $25 bucks a piece. Hmm, so $100 dollars total. I suppose that's starting to get up there, but for that you get a lot of driver.
The crossover looks to be dead simple with 2nd order electrical on each section, and then a padding resistor on the HF side. Still, though the design appears simple and the parts count low, Mr. Krutke's crossover is likely taking care of a few issues at once. It would be hard to duplicate a design from scratch with that kind of elegance. For me anyway!
Zaph|Audio - ZA5 Speaker Designs with ZA14W08 woofer and Vifa DQ25SC16-04 tweeter
The two-way version of this design would be nice also - a fellow board member here brought this midwoofer (the ZA14) to my attention in terms of value. It looks like a hell of a deal at about $40. For your application though, I would be tempted to go with the dual aluminum 6's as listed above, as I think it will do a better job of keeping up with your subwoofer. If you're looking for moderate SPL and bass extension below 60 Hz or so in-room, the ZA5 2 way might struggle a bit and you'd likely loose that head-room you were after. Perhaps you could go with one of the other designs listed on the ZA5 link, however if you start using multiple ZA14 drivers you'd be up to $80 per side for woofers (2 per side) and $160 total which is another step away from your original budget.
Jim
My pleasure! One of my favorite things to do with regards to speakers is what-if scenarios, however I am still a novice and as such I wouldn't feel right making recommendations on crossover design and the like. My own systems have enjoyed what might be called success at times, but as I am still learning, I tend to make a lot of scrap still!
From a system level, however, maybe there is an easier solution, unless you have your heart set on using one of those drivers. Can you tell me more about you subwoofer? It sounds interesting! So it's a transmission-line design that can play up to around 70 Hz, but you'd like to keep it under that ideally? Hmm so it sounds like you are after sound quality as a main goal, with enough SPL capability for moderate listening and good dynamics, is that correct?
Zaph|Audio - Bargain Aluminum MTM
Mr. Krutke's "Bargain Aluminum MTM" design looks like it might fit the bill, and the parts aren't too expensive. It's a little more for the mid-woofers as what you were looking to spend before, but not a lot more. It uses the Dayton DA175 (2 of them per side) which appears to be selling at Parts Express for about $25 bucks a piece. Hmm, so $100 dollars total. I suppose that's starting to get up there, but for that you get a lot of driver.
The crossover looks to be dead simple with 2nd order electrical on each section, and then a padding resistor on the HF side. Still, though the design appears simple and the parts count low, Mr. Krutke's crossover is likely taking care of a few issues at once. It would be hard to duplicate a design from scratch with that kind of elegance. For me anyway!
Zaph|Audio - ZA5 Speaker Designs with ZA14W08 woofer and Vifa DQ25SC16-04 tweeter
The two-way version of this design would be nice also - a fellow board member here brought this midwoofer (the ZA14) to my attention in terms of value. It looks like a hell of a deal at about $40. For your application though, I would be tempted to go with the dual aluminum 6's as listed above, as I think it will do a better job of keeping up with your subwoofer. If you're looking for moderate SPL and bass extension below 60 Hz or so in-room, the ZA5 2 way might struggle a bit and you'd likely loose that head-room you were after. Perhaps you could go with one of the other designs listed on the ZA5 link, however if you start using multiple ZA14 drivers you'd be up to $80 per side for woofers (2 per side) and $160 total which is another step away from your original budget.
Jim
yea, i was hoping to stay around $80 for all the drivers. But i agree that using a tested design has many advantages, especially for a newcomer to designing crossovers. And it may be worth waiting a while and saving up the money to do the MTM, since i will likely be keeping whatever i build around for a while
But i do like the idea of doing my own build, and it would probably be cheaper. Do you know of any resources for designing crossovers? or anyone on here that could help?
as far as my T-Line sub, im not sure how much you have heard about transmission lines (i know there are people on here using them), but there are plenty of articles on the web explaining them. It is essentially just a folded pipe with length = 1/4 the wavelength of the desired tuning frequency (in my case 24.5 hz). often the pipe is either tapered or flared for various acoustic reasons, and stuffed to dampen resonances. but mine is pretty much as simple as it gets, so in the higher octaves, the response gets a little shaky. But it allows high output at low frequencies with a small driver (although a large enclosure)
But i do like the idea of doing my own build, and it would probably be cheaper. Do you know of any resources for designing crossovers? or anyone on here that could help?
as far as my T-Line sub, im not sure how much you have heard about transmission lines (i know there are people on here using them), but there are plenty of articles on the web explaining them. It is essentially just a folded pipe with length = 1/4 the wavelength of the desired tuning frequency (in my case 24.5 hz). often the pipe is either tapered or flared for various acoustic reasons, and stuffed to dampen resonances. but mine is pretty much as simple as it gets, so in the higher octaves, the response gets a little shaky. But it allows high output at low frequencies with a small driver (although a large enclosure)
Hi,
I'm not an expert, but I built a speaker using the little brother of your Peerless driver (830656 vs 830657), and the same Vifa tweeter. After some months of listening, I can say that it is a pretty good combo, even if I could have done something differently. What I worry about your choice, is that in order not to hear the breakup of the 830657, you have to shift down the xo point, hitting probably the limits of the tweeter.
You can read my thread here
I suggest you to read post #8 by DcbeL for a methodology of designing a xo, and post #15 by Jay_WJ about z offset of acoustical center.
Ralf
I'm not an expert, but I built a speaker using the little brother of your Peerless driver (830656 vs 830657), and the same Vifa tweeter. After some months of listening, I can say that it is a pretty good combo, even if I could have done something differently. What I worry about your choice, is that in order not to hear the breakup of the 830657, you have to shift down the xo point, hitting probably the limits of the tweeter.
You can read my thread here
I suggest you to read post #8 by DcbeL for a methodology of designing a xo, and post #15 by Jay_WJ about z offset of acoustical center.
Ralf
State,
This is just a quick-one, but look what I just found on EBay:
Dayton DA175-8 7” Aluminum Cone Woofers - eBay (item 200395348835 end time Oct-23-09 19:00:55 PDT)
It's the DA-175 woofers, 4 of them! I bet this guy was going to build the Zaph BAMTM. I would suggest just going for the buy-it-now price of 17 bucks a piece. Not too shabby!
Jim
This is just a quick-one, but look what I just found on EBay:
Dayton DA175-8 7” Aluminum Cone Woofers - eBay (item 200395348835 end time Oct-23-09 19:00:55 PDT)
It's the DA-175 woofers, 4 of them! I bet this guy was going to build the Zaph BAMTM. I would suggest just going for the buy-it-now price of 17 bucks a piece. Not too shabby!
Jim
I build some speakers about 25 yrs. ago. I wish I had this at the time. It should make life a little easier for you.
Crossover Design Chart and Inductance vs. Frequency Calculator(Low-pass)
Crossover Design Chart and Inductance vs. Frequency Calculator(Low-pass)
Ok cool, thanks, this looks like it will be pretty helpful for doing basic crossovers. I'm guessing just doing a basic crossover like this worked well for you?
I'm not looking for perfection, so I'm guessing that with the fairly flat response of the aurasound and the tang band, that just a simple 2nd will work fine? if thats really all i should be looking to do, then i will just plug the numbers into the calculator and go for it.
Or should i try and worry about zoebel networks or other more complicated circuits?
I'm not looking for perfection, so I'm guessing that with the fairly flat response of the aurasound and the tang band, that just a simple 2nd will work fine? if thats really all i should be looking to do, then i will just plug the numbers into the calculator and go for it.
Or should i try and worry about zoebel networks or other more complicated circuits?
Yes, I used a first order (just a cap) for the tweeter, second order crossover (cap and inductor) for the woofer, mostly because it was what the orginal design had, and I didn't know any better. Now I would have used a second order for both, since inductors aren't that expensive and to tighten things up a little more. I'd say most speakers, at least the ones I have replaced caps on, costing less than $600 or so, use a 2nd order crossover. But I did it calculated the crossover, the old fashioned way with a calculator and pencil. (before the internet was available.) I had a pair of Cerwin Vegas, with a 12" woofer. A 2 way system which I replaced the woofer and tweeter. It was when polypropylene woofers were just coming out, just to give you an idea how long ago it was. I think the woofer was a polypropylene Pyle woofer, and the tweeter was a soft dome Peerless. I was very happy with the change in the sound. It was a whole lot clearer, and tighter.
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check this ones :
tweeter:
CAT298 - Morel 1" Silk Dome Tweeter - EUROPE AUDIO
Woofer :
H1224 - Seas L18RNX/P 6.5" woofer - EUROPE AUDIO
I used this Seas woofers to replace the originals in JBL LX400 (3 way) and i´m really happy with them. Good and tight bass , never boomy , i play music really loud and never had any problems with them.
tweeter:
CAT298 - Morel 1" Silk Dome Tweeter - EUROPE AUDIO
Woofer :
H1224 - Seas L18RNX/P 6.5" woofer - EUROPE AUDIO
I used this Seas woofers to replace the originals in JBL LX400 (3 way) and i´m really happy with them. Good and tight bass , never boomy , i play music really loud and never had any problems with them.
No. However some subwoofers come with a 180 phase shift switch. It's just a matter of personal taste. I have never used that switch myself.
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