Hi Alan,
I have spent the last few days going through the documentation of this thread to make sure I have the right information. Unfortunately, I can only see the markings of one of the high frequency caps.
Following P3 of the DITTON44T.B.C. there are the following;
C1 72uf50V
C2 72uf50V
C3 2 orange caps of unknown size and a black 6uf50V
C4 6uf50V
C5,C6,C7 are 2 identical caps of 2.2uf250V
C4,C9,C10,C11 are actually 3 identical caps I suspect are 2.2uf250V
On the assumption that they are also 2.2uf, then C5,6,and 7 are 4.4uf where others have a total of 4uf, and 6.6uf where others have 6uf.
Now my dilemma. Do I order direct replacements of what is in my 44? These are different cabinets than I have seen anywhere else, with beautiful bleached rosewood veneer. or do I order what others have been ordering?
If I understood the ESR correctly, I will want to place a 0.5ohm5W in series between the 6.6uF cap and the tweeter, a 1.5ohm5W in series between C3 and L3, and a final 2.7ohm5W in series between C4 and ground. Finally, if I replace the electrolytics in the low frequency stage C1 and C2 (which I intend to do), I should put in a 1ohm5W resister between C2 and ground?
I am assuming that I can control the bass somewhat with this resister. I am finding that I like a good but not too dominant bass. Also, what do I do about the differences? I am thinking my 44s are Mark 2 without the PCB, therefore will have higher power handling. How best to confirm this? It is confusing as my crossover seems to be a hybrid between the Mark 1 and the Mark 2. A kit? If so, a well made kit!
I do like the sound of these speakers, but I found the bass a little on the light side and the mids to highs were harsh as I cranked up the power on my sansui 9090.
I have made up a parts list, but I'll wait to post it until I hear back from you.
Cheers from snowy Canada (we have about 3 feet of snow on the ground, but not after this warm spell that is coming)
I have spent the last few days going through the documentation of this thread to make sure I have the right information. Unfortunately, I can only see the markings of one of the high frequency caps.
Following P3 of the DITTON44T.B.C. there are the following;
C1 72uf50V
C2 72uf50V
C3 2 orange caps of unknown size and a black 6uf50V
C4 6uf50V
C5,C6,C7 are 2 identical caps of 2.2uf250V
C4,C9,C10,C11 are actually 3 identical caps I suspect are 2.2uf250V
On the assumption that they are also 2.2uf, then C5,6,and 7 are 4.4uf where others have a total of 4uf, and 6.6uf where others have 6uf.
Now my dilemma. Do I order direct replacements of what is in my 44? These are different cabinets than I have seen anywhere else, with beautiful bleached rosewood veneer. or do I order what others have been ordering?
If I understood the ESR correctly, I will want to place a 0.5ohm5W in series between the 6.6uF cap and the tweeter, a 1.5ohm5W in series between C3 and L3, and a final 2.7ohm5W in series between C4 and ground. Finally, if I replace the electrolytics in the low frequency stage C1 and C2 (which I intend to do), I should put in a 1ohm5W resister between C2 and ground?
I am assuming that I can control the bass somewhat with this resister. I am finding that I like a good but not too dominant bass. Also, what do I do about the differences? I am thinking my 44s are Mark 2 without the PCB, therefore will have higher power handling. How best to confirm this? It is confusing as my crossover seems to be a hybrid between the Mark 1 and the Mark 2. A kit? If so, a well made kit!
I do like the sound of these speakers, but I found the bass a little on the light side and the mids to highs were harsh as I cranked up the power on my sansui 9090.
I have made up a parts list, but I'll wait to post it until I hear back from you.
Cheers from snowy Canada (we have about 3 feet of snow on the ground, but not after this warm spell that is coming)
Parts list and Reference Schematic
Parts List
qty part description p/n price inU$S
8 36uf 250V for C1 and C2 Axon-73691 $6.96
8 3uf 250V for for C4, C6 and C7 Clarity-74389 $10.01
2 4uf 250V for C5 Clarity-74842 $10.43
2 33uf 250V for C3 Clarity-74858 $42.06
2 0R5 5 Watt for R4 Mills-71893 $3.95
2 1R0 5 Watt for R1 Mills-64619 $3.95
2 1R5 5 Watt for R3 Mills-71894 $3.95
2 2R7 5 Watt for R2 Mills-64619 $3.95
Total cost if I order these parts right now is $272.34. That is the same as what I paid for these speakers, and yet I am willing to spend this for another 30 years of great sound. I spend much more than this for computer gear that lasts only a few years. I'm not yet sure how I will deal with the much larger sized caps in C1,C2, and C3, but I think if I reorganize the layout, I should be able to fit them all in.
Parts Listqty part description p/n price inU$S
8 36uf 250V for C1 and C2 Axon-73691 $6.96
8 3uf 250V for for C4, C6 and C7 Clarity-74389 $10.01
2 4uf 250V for C5 Clarity-74842 $10.43
2 33uf 250V for C3 Clarity-74858 $42.06
2 0R5 5 Watt for R4 Mills-71893 $3.95
2 1R0 5 Watt for R1 Mills-64619 $3.95
2 1R5 5 Watt for R3 Mills-71894 $3.95
2 2R7 5 Watt for R2 Mills-64619 $3.95
Total cost if I order these parts right now is $272.34. That is the same as what I paid for these speakers, and yet I am willing to spend this for another 30 years of great sound. I spend much more than this for computer gear that lasts only a few years. I'm not yet sure how I will deal with the much larger sized caps in C1,C2, and C3, but I think if I reorganize the layout, I should be able to fit them all in.
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OK, I have decided to cut out the old caps to get the size they are. I am getting cabin fever. So, using my new schematic as a reference but using the units in my crossover;
C3 = 12uf + 12 uf + 6 uf = 30 uf
C5 = 2.2uf + 2.2uf = 4.4uf
C6 + C7 = 2.2uf + 2.2uf + 2.2uf = 6.6uf
I'm thinking I should use closest to existing as possible, which means that if I look at
ClarityCap ESA Series Film Capacitor
I should get;
C3 = (12 + 12 + 6) or (15 + 15)
C5 = (2.2 + 2.2)
C6 = 3.3
C7 = 3.3
I'm thinking that since I like the way the highs are right now, I shouldn't mess around with the values in the high frequency stage, and I like the mids as well, so I should leave them alone.
In terms of power handling ability, should I consider higher power values of caps and resisters, or will power handling be limited to the power handling capacity of the drivers? Should I consider ordering a few other values of resisters for experimenting? I'm thinking mainly in terms of the low frequency stage, but I may want to fine tune the mids and high frequency stages.
What do you think?
I will be removing the tweeter and midrange in order to try and identify what variation of the 44 I have, or is it a hybrid. I'll post pictures later.
C3 = 12uf + 12 uf + 6 uf = 30 uf
C5 = 2.2uf + 2.2uf = 4.4uf
C6 + C7 = 2.2uf + 2.2uf + 2.2uf = 6.6uf
I'm thinking I should use closest to existing as possible, which means that if I look at
ClarityCap ESA Series Film Capacitor
I should get;
C3 = (12 + 12 + 6) or (15 + 15)
C5 = (2.2 + 2.2)
C6 = 3.3
C7 = 3.3
I'm thinking that since I like the way the highs are right now, I shouldn't mess around with the values in the high frequency stage, and I like the mids as well, so I should leave them alone.
In terms of power handling ability, should I consider higher power values of caps and resisters, or will power handling be limited to the power handling capacity of the drivers? Should I consider ordering a few other values of resisters for experimenting? I'm thinking mainly in terms of the low frequency stage, but I may want to fine tune the mids and high frequency stages.
What do you think?
I will be removing the tweeter and midrange in order to try and identify what variation of the 44 I have, or is it a hybrid. I'll post pictures later.
a variation of the T.B.C. crossover
Hi TechnoDweeb ,
from your photos it is obvious that you have the earlier 44s with the T.B.C. crossovers ,
BUT , the problem is , as LucasAdamson posted in several places in this thread ,
there were 3 different versions of this model for the input capacitor of the midrange filter ...
so which to use ?
You could go with Celestion's final decision as shown on the T.B.C. schematic , #188 on Page 19 , of 24uF ...
but perhaps by then Celestion had started using the new mid-range cone ...
and if your 44s have the original mid-cone it may be better to stay with what you found in your crossover.
I recommend you do not use 33uF , because the version with caps summing closest to that may not be yours.
The larger the cap there , the more lower midrange there will be ,
and if 33uF is too large for your mid-cones there will be some lower mids bloating - a resonant excess.
I recommend you stay with what you found - caps that sum to 30uF.
From:
Madisound Speaker Components: distributor of loudspeaker drivers and parts for speaker builders.
you can buy Mail-order Claritycap PX series , including 30uF for US$20.15 , and 6uF for US$6.20 .
This is significantly lower price than the ESA series , as also is the PX 3.9uF to use instead of 4uF to the tweeter.
PX series are good quality Audio caps - I have some.
They cause much better sound than the caps used in all modern low price , and in most modern mid-price and some high price loudspeakers.
Given how old those Celestion drivers are I do not know if you will hear any improvement with the more expensive ESA series ,
and using PX in the exact values means you do not have to Parallel connect caps ,
{which unless done very carefully can result in slightly less good sound than a single capacitor}.
If you do want to spend the ESA prices , then go to:
Sonic Craft High-End DIY Audio Parts
and to their Sonicap pages , and to their Gen1 series in 200 volt.
There is 3.9uF and 4uF ; 6uF and 6.2uF ; choose whichever has the Length and Diameter that fits more neatly on your board ,
because the small difference in capacitance is negligble in this application.
There is also exact 30uF ... and Soniccraft's prices for the Mills MRA-5 resistors is US$1 less than Parts Connexion's price.
The electrolytic caps you found in the tweeter filter in your 44s are not what Celestion ever used.
These were installed by some-one else who used nearest capacitances ,
but as those are all 10% larger , I recommend you buy 3.9uF or 4uF , and 6uF or 6.2uF , as above.
The resistors:
Lucas did a lot of experimenting , and when he used 0.5 ohm to the tweeter he also had 2.0 ohms in Series with the midrange.
The Celestion HF2000 tweeter has less output than the mid-cone , thus does not need resistive attenuation.
I recommend you start with:
no resistor in the tweeter filter ,
1.8 ohms in Series with 30uF C3, and 2.7 ohms in Series with 6uF C4 in the midrange filter ,
1.0 ohms in Series with C1 , and 1.5 ohms in Series with C2 in the woofer filter.
If midrange is then too low , then swap the 1.5 ohm and 1.8 ohm resistors to 1.5 in the mids and 1.8 in the bass at C2.
This will cause slightly greater difference in the midrange than it will in the bass.
To get the Treble right , apply Felt treatment around the tweeter before you insert any resistor.
{ I have posted more about the Felt application in the Celestion 66 midrange thread , and will be posting a bit more when I have time available }.
The Power handling you asked about will be limited by the drivers , and not by any of the resistors and caps I have recommended here.
Part , or perhaps all , the sound problems you listed when driving the 44s hard with the Sansui 9090 receiver may be owing to the deterioration of caps in the receiver ,
or , as result of its Bias current having drifted too far from the optimum amount.
Do you have a Schematic for the Sansui ?
If yes , then post it here if you can.
If you cannot post it , then look inside at all its electrolytic caps.
There will be one or two large caps in the first stage of its power supply ,
and probably also two large caps at its output - one for each channel.
These output caps will not be less than 2200uF , and more likely will be 4700uF or more.
If still the original caps there , they will need to be replaced , but do not rush into buying , but post here first ,
because to get the best from a capacitor coupled output amplifier you will have to choose the type of electrolytic very carefully.
MacIntosh did not use output capacitors , but instead used output transformers -{ in all their Solid State amps , if I have been correctly informed }-
and very good transformers , because MacIntosh knew about output transformers from their earlier Tube amps -{ for which they designed their own specialist transformers }.
This is why vintage MacIntosh solid state amps are regarded so highly above the capacitor coupled output amplifiers of that era.
{ Most modern solid state amps do not need output capacitors or output transformers }.
Yes , do post photos of the backs of the midrange drivers from your 44s ,
as that will help us identify and decide which caps to use with which versions of that driver.
I have more to say about improving the sound of the bass of the 44 , but that does not involve caps or resistors ,
so I will post that at another time , as I have to go now.
Hi TechnoDweeb ,
from your photos it is obvious that you have the earlier 44s with the T.B.C. crossovers ,
BUT , the problem is , as LucasAdamson posted in several places in this thread ,
there were 3 different versions of this model for the input capacitor of the midrange filter ...
so which to use ?
You could go with Celestion's final decision as shown on the T.B.C. schematic , #188 on Page 19 , of 24uF ...
but perhaps by then Celestion had started using the new mid-range cone ...
and if your 44s have the original mid-cone it may be better to stay with what you found in your crossover.
I recommend you do not use 33uF , because the version with caps summing closest to that may not be yours.
The larger the cap there , the more lower midrange there will be ,
and if 33uF is too large for your mid-cones there will be some lower mids bloating - a resonant excess.
I recommend you stay with what you found - caps that sum to 30uF.
From:
Madisound Speaker Components: distributor of loudspeaker drivers and parts for speaker builders.
you can buy Mail-order Claritycap PX series , including 30uF for US$20.15 , and 6uF for US$6.20 .
This is significantly lower price than the ESA series , as also is the PX 3.9uF to use instead of 4uF to the tweeter.
PX series are good quality Audio caps - I have some.
They cause much better sound than the caps used in all modern low price , and in most modern mid-price and some high price loudspeakers.
Given how old those Celestion drivers are I do not know if you will hear any improvement with the more expensive ESA series ,
and using PX in the exact values means you do not have to Parallel connect caps ,
{which unless done very carefully can result in slightly less good sound than a single capacitor}.
If you do want to spend the ESA prices , then go to:
Sonic Craft High-End DIY Audio Parts
and to their Sonicap pages , and to their Gen1 series in 200 volt.
There is 3.9uF and 4uF ; 6uF and 6.2uF ; choose whichever has the Length and Diameter that fits more neatly on your board ,
because the small difference in capacitance is negligble in this application.
There is also exact 30uF ... and Soniccraft's prices for the Mills MRA-5 resistors is US$1 less than Parts Connexion's price.
The electrolytic caps you found in the tweeter filter in your 44s are not what Celestion ever used.
These were installed by some-one else who used nearest capacitances ,
but as those are all 10% larger , I recommend you buy 3.9uF or 4uF , and 6uF or 6.2uF , as above.
The resistors:
Lucas did a lot of experimenting , and when he used 0.5 ohm to the tweeter he also had 2.0 ohms in Series with the midrange.
The Celestion HF2000 tweeter has less output than the mid-cone , thus does not need resistive attenuation.
I recommend you start with:
no resistor in the tweeter filter ,
1.8 ohms in Series with 30uF C3, and 2.7 ohms in Series with 6uF C4 in the midrange filter ,
1.0 ohms in Series with C1 , and 1.5 ohms in Series with C2 in the woofer filter.
If midrange is then too low , then swap the 1.5 ohm and 1.8 ohm resistors to 1.5 in the mids and 1.8 in the bass at C2.
This will cause slightly greater difference in the midrange than it will in the bass.
To get the Treble right , apply Felt treatment around the tweeter before you insert any resistor.
{ I have posted more about the Felt application in the Celestion 66 midrange thread , and will be posting a bit more when I have time available }.
The Power handling you asked about will be limited by the drivers , and not by any of the resistors and caps I have recommended here.
Part , or perhaps all , the sound problems you listed when driving the 44s hard with the Sansui 9090 receiver may be owing to the deterioration of caps in the receiver ,
or , as result of its Bias current having drifted too far from the optimum amount.
Do you have a Schematic for the Sansui ?
If yes , then post it here if you can.
If you cannot post it , then look inside at all its electrolytic caps.
There will be one or two large caps in the first stage of its power supply ,
and probably also two large caps at its output - one for each channel.
These output caps will not be less than 2200uF , and more likely will be 4700uF or more.
If still the original caps there , they will need to be replaced , but do not rush into buying , but post here first ,
because to get the best from a capacitor coupled output amplifier you will have to choose the type of electrolytic very carefully.
MacIntosh did not use output capacitors , but instead used output transformers -{ in all their Solid State amps , if I have been correctly informed }-
and very good transformers , because MacIntosh knew about output transformers from their earlier Tube amps -{ for which they designed their own specialist transformers }.
This is why vintage MacIntosh solid state amps are regarded so highly above the capacitor coupled output amplifiers of that era.
{ Most modern solid state amps do not need output capacitors or output transformers }.
Yes , do post photos of the backs of the midrange drivers from your 44s ,
as that will help us identify and decide which caps to use with which versions of that driver.
I have more to say about improving the sound of the bass of the 44 , but that does not involve caps or resistors ,
so I will post that at another time , as I have to go now.
Pictures of the Midrange and Tweeter drivers
Thanks Alan,
Your advice makes sense. I am poised to order the parts Wednesday evening at the earliest.
Here are some pictures I took last night. I apologize for the poor pictures. I really shouldn't have been doing this in the evening as the flu has still got it's grip on me.
My Sansui 9090 was recapped and calibrated shortly before I traded for it. One of the reasons I went for it, because I didn't want to face another project. Of course, that doesn't mean it was done properly, or with the best components. I'll see if I can find some schematics. For now though, I think I should leave the receiver alone. I'll look at that after I have recapped the 44s and the Kef Concerto's. I see myself slowly moving towards separates.
Thanks Alan,
Your advice makes sense. I am poised to order the parts Wednesday evening at the earliest.
Here are some pictures I took last night. I apologize for the poor pictures. I really shouldn't have been doing this in the evening as the flu has still got it's grip on me.
My Sansui 9090 was recapped and calibrated shortly before I traded for it. One of the reasons I went for it, because I didn't want to face another project. Of course, that doesn't mean it was done properly, or with the best components. I'll see if I can find some schematics. For now though, I think I should leave the receiver alone. I'll look at that after I have recapped the 44s and the Kef Concerto's. I see myself slowly moving towards separates.
Attachments
If you are TRULY OCD, you can "DC bias" the caps as described in this thread, but it takes twice the caps each at twice the value, though you can use any type of capacitor: http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/mult...bias-crossovers-into-class-how-does-work.html
I agree KMossman. I am replacing the caps. The challenge is to do it at a reasonable price and good results. As for my Sansui 9090, it was recapped just before Christmas with adjustments made. It was done by a local electrical engineering student who is a perfectionist. I do believe he used quality components, but will need to open it up to confirm.
benb, an interesting read. I'm not sure if I want to do that right now. I was quite impressed with the results from other posters of this thread. And I really like the ditton 44s. For some reason, I like them better than the 66s I had. I actually ABed the two sets of speakers and the 44s sounded better to my ears. It may have something to do with the neutrality of the 66s over the 44s.
I am on a quest for the best sound and eye candy I can get without breaking the bank. I think my ear is also getting educated as I go, and the bar is going higher. Maybe what I should start doing is getting the vendor to bring his equipment to my place for the audition. So much depends on the room... I really love the way vintage audio amps and receivers look.
benb, an interesting read. I'm not sure if I want to do that right now. I was quite impressed with the results from other posters of this thread. And I really like the ditton 44s. For some reason, I like them better than the 66s I had. I actually ABed the two sets of speakers and the 44s sounded better to my ears. It may have something to do with the neutrality of the 66s over the 44s.
I am on a quest for the best sound and eye candy I can get without breaking the bank. I think my ear is also getting educated as I go, and the bar is going higher. Maybe what I should start doing is getting the vendor to bring his equipment to my place for the audition. So much depends on the room... I really love the way vintage audio amps and receivers look.
follow-up to post #263 , and some in later posts ...
DC biasing of back-to-back series connected polar electrolytics can produce good results ,
though can be done more easily in amplifers , etc ... , where there is a voltage source to obtain the bias voltage from.
With a battery for the voltage in a passive crossover I would only use such if I mounted the crossover outside the spkr cabinet ,
so that I could regularly check the battery still had voltage ,
and only if very large capacitance was needed , such as for a woofer crossed at a very low frequency ,
because otherwise I would use polypropylene caps for capacitances they are available in , so as to have low Dielectric Absorption ...
however I would use a DC biased polar pair of electros as lower cost for an experimental design circuit when deciding what capacitance was needed.
*
Technodweeb ,
in your schematic in #263 above , move R3 to the other side of the junction of C3 and L3 ,
so that it is located in direct Series with C3 before L2 in the circuit.
R3 needs to be as if an internal part of C3.
It can be connected to either side of C3 , whichever is easier to install ,
but there must be no other components connected to the junction point of C3 and R3.
For all the resistors , leave about half inch of lead straight out from each end of their body ,
then bend the leads in such way as to support the body so that the body is in air above the board , and not touching any components.
These Mills resistors are light weight and their leads are strong enough to support them.
No warm or hot spots can develop on them when they are not touching anything ,
and they will then warm evenly over all their body when you drive to high levels.
-
As you have Kef Concerto , if you find later that the Lower midrange sounds in excess with the 30uF in the Celestion 44 ,
you can use the 30uF for the Kefs , and install 24 or 25uF in the 44s.
After you have the caps and resistors installed , listen for a while with all the critical evaluation recordings you have ,
and decide about the midrange and bass performance.
Next improvement can be done to the bass , and that will be more expensive than capacitors because that requires two new inductors for each crossover.
Lower price if you can wind them yourself , but otherwise do not buy any until we discuss here ,
because with some of the brands' types you will only get different sound , as distinct from better sound.
They will be large , as will need to be made of thick wire.
Ideally , later make a new board to install new inductors and the woofer filter caps on ,
and retain the old board only for the mids and tweeter filters.
Each board can be connected separately to the cable terminals ,
or install a second pair of terminals so you can Bi-wire back to the amplifier.
Do you still have the MacIntosh amplifier ?
-
The magnet on back of your mid-cone driver looks large enough to be the large type that LucasAdamson posted about ,
though I cannot be sure until I see the other type ...
{ where is Lucas A when we need him ? }.
Stick that lifted edge of HF2000 carefully with something that will stay adhered to metal ,
but scrape clean the metal first so no surface oxide tarnish.
If you cannot obtain a metal adhesive that sets hard , then use a Roofing Silicone of the type that sticks to metal guttering , etc ...
{ not a Bathroom Tiles silicone , as that may only hold long term to ceramic }.
DC biasing of back-to-back series connected polar electrolytics can produce good results ,
though can be done more easily in amplifers , etc ... , where there is a voltage source to obtain the bias voltage from.
With a battery for the voltage in a passive crossover I would only use such if I mounted the crossover outside the spkr cabinet ,
so that I could regularly check the battery still had voltage ,
and only if very large capacitance was needed , such as for a woofer crossed at a very low frequency ,
because otherwise I would use polypropylene caps for capacitances they are available in , so as to have low Dielectric Absorption ...
however I would use a DC biased polar pair of electros as lower cost for an experimental design circuit when deciding what capacitance was needed.
*
Technodweeb ,
in your schematic in #263 above , move R3 to the other side of the junction of C3 and L3 ,
so that it is located in direct Series with C3 before L2 in the circuit.
R3 needs to be as if an internal part of C3.
It can be connected to either side of C3 , whichever is easier to install ,
but there must be no other components connected to the junction point of C3 and R3.
For all the resistors , leave about half inch of lead straight out from each end of their body ,
then bend the leads in such way as to support the body so that the body is in air above the board , and not touching any components.
These Mills resistors are light weight and their leads are strong enough to support them.
No warm or hot spots can develop on them when they are not touching anything ,
and they will then warm evenly over all their body when you drive to high levels.
-
As you have Kef Concerto , if you find later that the Lower midrange sounds in excess with the 30uF in the Celestion 44 ,
you can use the 30uF for the Kefs , and install 24 or 25uF in the 44s.
After you have the caps and resistors installed , listen for a while with all the critical evaluation recordings you have ,
and decide about the midrange and bass performance.
Next improvement can be done to the bass , and that will be more expensive than capacitors because that requires two new inductors for each crossover.
Lower price if you can wind them yourself , but otherwise do not buy any until we discuss here ,
because with some of the brands' types you will only get different sound , as distinct from better sound.
They will be large , as will need to be made of thick wire.
Ideally , later make a new board to install new inductors and the woofer filter caps on ,
and retain the old board only for the mids and tweeter filters.
Each board can be connected separately to the cable terminals ,
or install a second pair of terminals so you can Bi-wire back to the amplifier.
Do you still have the MacIntosh amplifier ?
-
The magnet on back of your mid-cone driver looks large enough to be the large type that LucasAdamson posted about ,
though I cannot be sure until I see the other type ...
{ where is Lucas A when we need him ? }.
Stick that lifted edge of HF2000 carefully with something that will stay adhered to metal ,
but scrape clean the metal first so no surface oxide tarnish.
If you cannot obtain a metal adhesive that sets hard , then use a Roofing Silicone of the type that sticks to metal guttering , etc ...
{ not a Bathroom Tiles silicone , as that may only hold long term to ceramic }.
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A slight delay in parts ordering
Last night, when I was supposed to be ordering my parts for the ditton 44, I went to check out an amplifier. Wow! I was really impressed! I ended up coming home with it. Now it sits proudly where the Sansui 9090 was sitting. For me it was an epic moment. I had found that sound. Ave Maria was magical. Shine On You Crazy Diamond was perfect. And Billy Idol hasn't sounded like that since I heard him on my sister-in-laws Quad system with Kef 104s in the 80s. I'm sure Quadraphenia will be awesome again too!
It seems my instinct was right. The McIntosh and the Sansui just didn't have enough current for these 4 ohm speakers. The harshness is gone in the highs and the lows are fuller and have much more depth. It is in the words of someone else online, "as though a veil had been lifted."
It is a Kenwood Supreme 500, recently restored. It isn't minty, but it is in pretty good condition, with 30 some odd years of life behind it.
I know this is all a little off topic, but please bear with me. I am mentioning it because I started with 4 ohm speakers and because of that, I have been going on this adventure.
I hope that other newbies to vintage audio will take this lesson I have had back with them. My speakers sounded great at low volumes, but I was never happy as soon as I turned up the volume a little higher. I was overdriving the amp, but didn't know it because the only symptom I heard was the shrillness or harshness of the highs. The Kef's sound great now. I can't wait to hear the 44s.
Speaking of the 44s, because I bought the 500, I will have to wait 2 weeks until my next pay before I can put in the order. In the meantime, hopefully Lucas A will have seen your post, Alan, and have an answer for us about the Midrange in the Ditton 44s.
I think I will likely sell the Sansui 9090. As for the McIntosh 1900, she is a keeper. I love the way she looks and the sound she generates, and if I need to have it louder, I will play it on the Kenwood.
I am lucky living in Ottawa, because it seems there is more high end audio available in this city than any other in Canada, likely because of the high tech community here in the 70s onwards.
All my best!
Last night, when I was supposed to be ordering my parts for the ditton 44, I went to check out an amplifier. Wow! I was really impressed! I ended up coming home with it. Now it sits proudly where the Sansui 9090 was sitting. For me it was an epic moment. I had found that sound. Ave Maria was magical. Shine On You Crazy Diamond was perfect. And Billy Idol hasn't sounded like that since I heard him on my sister-in-laws Quad system with Kef 104s in the 80s. I'm sure Quadraphenia will be awesome again too!
It seems my instinct was right. The McIntosh and the Sansui just didn't have enough current for these 4 ohm speakers. The harshness is gone in the highs and the lows are fuller and have much more depth. It is in the words of someone else online, "as though a veil had been lifted."
It is a Kenwood Supreme 500, recently restored. It isn't minty, but it is in pretty good condition, with 30 some odd years of life behind it.
I know this is all a little off topic, but please bear with me. I am mentioning it because I started with 4 ohm speakers and because of that, I have been going on this adventure.
I hope that other newbies to vintage audio will take this lesson I have had back with them. My speakers sounded great at low volumes, but I was never happy as soon as I turned up the volume a little higher. I was overdriving the amp, but didn't know it because the only symptom I heard was the shrillness or harshness of the highs. The Kef's sound great now. I can't wait to hear the 44s.
Speaking of the 44s, because I bought the 500, I will have to wait 2 weeks until my next pay before I can put in the order. In the meantime, hopefully Lucas A will have seen your post, Alan, and have an answer for us about the Midrange in the Ditton 44s.
I think I will likely sell the Sansui 9090. As for the McIntosh 1900, she is a keeper. I love the way she looks and the sound she generates, and if I need to have it louder, I will play it on the Kenwood.
I am lucky living in Ottawa, because it seems there is more high end audio available in this city than any other in Canada, likely because of the high tech community here in the 70s onwards.
All my best!
Attachments
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Good day all!
I received the parts yesterday, so this afternoon, I did one speaker. It sounds a little less loud in the lows, than the original speaker, and I'm afraid I had to adjust the parts a little bit for the order options I had. I wanted to get all the parts from one place, and Solen.ca had the closest list to what I wanted. I don't mind that too much, as it is a learning experimental stage I am in right now, and I want to hear the differences. I decided to put in electrolytic caps on the low frequency, and had to use 68 uf for that.
It has been about 20 years since I last did soldering, and I was quite rusty, but I think it worked pretty well. Putting in the two resisters in the midrange section required that I remove a couple of jumpers and adjust the inductors positions, but presented no real problem. I think the updated crossover sounds clearer and cleaner in the mids and highs. The lows, I'm not so sure. Need to spend some time listening.
I received the parts yesterday, so this afternoon, I did one speaker. It sounds a little less loud in the lows, than the original speaker, and I'm afraid I had to adjust the parts a little bit for the order options I had. I wanted to get all the parts from one place, and Solen.ca had the closest list to what I wanted. I don't mind that too much, as it is a learning experimental stage I am in right now, and I want to hear the differences. I decided to put in electrolytic caps on the low frequency, and had to use 68 uf for that.
It has been about 20 years since I last did soldering, and I was quite rusty, but I think it worked pretty well. Putting in the two resisters in the midrange section required that I remove a couple of jumpers and adjust the inductors positions, but presented no real problem. I think the updated crossover sounds clearer and cleaner in the mids and highs. The lows, I'm not so sure. Need to spend some time listening.
Alan,
Last night, as I was listening to my mismatched Ditton 44s, something you said in one of your posts struck me. You recommended we place the resisters off the board, and away from any other components, so they wouldn't touch anything, for even cooling purposes. I did that, but as I was listening, I realized that the foam damper that goes into the speaker is pressing against the top of the crossover.
What do you suggest for dealing with that?
It is thick enough foam that the back of the woofer pushes against the foam and right onto the crossover.
I didn't do the other speaker tonight, but went to dinner with my son and played pool, very poorly... Tomorrow night.
Last night, as I was listening to my mismatched Ditton 44s, something you said in one of your posts struck me. You recommended we place the resisters off the board, and away from any other components, so they wouldn't touch anything, for even cooling purposes. I did that, but as I was listening, I realized that the foam damper that goes into the speaker is pressing against the top of the crossover.
What do you suggest for dealing with that?
It is thick enough foam that the back of the woofer pushes against the foam and right onto the crossover.
I didn't do the other speaker tonight, but went to dinner with my son and played pool, very poorly... Tomorrow night.
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First impressions, the highs and mids sound great, with possible the highs a little too sharp. Definitely the bass is uncontrolled. The second speaker I did had some fuzziness when I compared the two after only doing the first, so it definitely needed a re-cap. Do you think an 88 uf cap would be way too much? Fortunately, I got the 68 uf caps for half price, so it was a $20 test that I will recover some time in the future. In all, it took me about 5 hours to do both speakers. I ran into a few problems near the end of the second one, mainly because I was tired at that point, and made a few mistakes on the second one, but caught them while double checking my work.
Now, to fine tune it so I am completely happy with the two speakers. Once I have gained the confidence from that, I will start on my Kef Concerto's, which I have been listening to since right after Christmas. And I have to say these are really great speakers! I walk into the house when the music is playing and my first impression is that these speakers sound so good! And they are very versatile. Everything I play sounds good, and I am hearing things in songs I've never heard before.
In my search for the right sound, I have amassed quite a few speakers! I now have a pair of Klipsch Heresy's from 1972, JBL L100T's, Kef 104aB's, and Genesis 2's. I can see why you folks out there in internetlandia are always looking for new sounds. You meet great people, see all kinds of different equipment, and hear many quality of sounds. I've also found a Bose 1801 power amp that is being restored. I realized while doing these speakers that my instincts were right in not trying to restore any amps or receivers. My eyes just aren't good enough any more for that kind of detailed work.
Now, to fine tune it so I am completely happy with the two speakers. Once I have gained the confidence from that, I will start on my Kef Concerto's, which I have been listening to since right after Christmas. And I have to say these are really great speakers! I walk into the house when the music is playing and my first impression is that these speakers sound so good! And they are very versatile. Everything I play sounds good, and I am hearing things in songs I've never heard before.
In my search for the right sound, I have amassed quite a few speakers! I now have a pair of Klipsch Heresy's from 1972, JBL L100T's, Kef 104aB's, and Genesis 2's. I can see why you folks out there in internetlandia are always looking for new sounds. You meet great people, see all kinds of different equipment, and hear many quality of sounds. I've also found a Bose 1801 power amp that is being restored. I realized while doing these speakers that my instincts were right in not trying to restore any amps or receivers. My eyes just aren't good enough any more for that kind of detailed work.
Hi Alan,
I bought a capacitor meter yesterday, measured the original 4 72 uf capacitors from the crossovers. They were all within 72 uf up to 76 uf. So I removed the new ones I had put in and put back the originals. Now the speakers sound right. No more uncontrolled bass, and the mids and highs seem to integrate into the sound better. I'm going to continue playing the 44s and listening critically to all my favourite songs. I'm very happy with the results.
I bought a capacitor meter yesterday, measured the original 4 72 uf capacitors from the crossovers. They were all within 72 uf up to 76 uf. So I removed the new ones I had put in and put back the originals. Now the speakers sound right. No more uncontrolled bass, and the mids and highs seem to integrate into the sound better. I'm going to continue playing the 44s and listening critically to all my favourite songs. I'm very happy with the results.
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results and recommendations
Hi TechnoDweeb ,
I will comment on all four of your posts 272 <---> 275 above in order.
If you absolutely had to buy all from one source , then I would have from Madisound in USA ,
and if only from Canada , then Parts Connexion despite higher price because higher quality ,
however given what you have done , let us continue ...
Your assembly procedure is good DIY , do one crossover and listen to it in comparison to the other.
This is how one hears whatever degree of improvement.
If I read correctly on the Solen web-site , all their resistors are 10 watt ,
thus should not get hot , however they are very large thus take up a lot of space.
You can cut away a little of the foam at each of the places where it touches a resistor ,
and with the remainder of the foam un-cut , its pressure against the other components of the crossover will prevent the cut-away surfaces from touching the resistors.
This type of foam must not be allowed to get hot , or it will deteriorate to eventual degree to be useless for sound absorption.
Worse , if it gets very hot it will burn - inside the speaker box.
Woofer pushing onto the foam will not cause a problem , because that woofer will not survive sufficient power to overheat before very audible distortion ,
and thus its magnet will not get hot enough to affect the foam , unless it is played for a long while at audible distortion.
{ Put your son in a pool if he continues to beat you - he may need to learn to respect his father sufficiently to realize that beating him is not the thing to do
... however if he is under 18 years of age you may prefer to tolerate his competiveness.}
Highs will appear sharper because your memory of their sound is with the interim installed electrolytic capacitors in the tweeter filter.
Celestion did not use electrolytic caps there , but used Paper-in-Oil caps in the original version and Mylar {polyester} caps in the Mark II version.
If the highs remain too sharp for your liking , then install 0.33 or 0.47 ohms in Series with the filter's 4uF cap
- at whichever end of the cap is easiest to fit it on the board.
A 5 watt resistor will be sufficient , as it will not get hot.
I would try 0.33 ohms first , and later if sound still not good even with 0.47 I would replace the Solen caps with at least ClarityCap PX series.
I did not recommend electrolytic caps for the woofer filter ,
and now you have at least heard why ...
Changing the middle position 68uF for an 82uF electro would increase the filtering ,
but not likely improve the sound much ... and I think you may realize that now after hearing result with the original caps back in.
Why did this occur ?
(1)- you are very lucky that the originals are still in sufficiently useable condition.
(2)- those black Alcap brand were specifically designed for loudspeaker passive crossovers.
They were much better made than general-purpose non-polar electros were at that time ,
and than most non-polar electros are now , including obviously Solen's.
(3)- I understand that some DIYers can be confused when they see electrolytic caps in their quite good sounding amplifiers ,
but read recommendations to not use electros in passive crossovers.
I can explain why electros can work better in amps than in passive crossovers , however it will be lengthy.
For now , consider this :- a moving coil speaker driver is a generator of signal as well as a reproducer.
It sends a voltage back into the crossover.
This back-EMF mixes with the stored signal voltage of the Dielectric Absorption of an electro cap ,
and as each is delayed in time/phase differently to the other the resultant addition of their voltages is non-linear with respect to the frequency spectrum of the original signal ,
thus the significant change of sound ,
and more-so because the speaker's back-EMF is NOT the same frequency spectrum as the original signal but includes resonances caused by the mechanical aspects of the speaker cone.
To minimize this audibly unpleasant effect capacitors with as low as possible Dielectric Absorption { DA } must be used.
In an amplifier there is no significant internal generated and delayed back-EMF ,
unless a very poorly designed amp , thus the DA effects of electros in amps is less audible ,
and in some sections of an amp circuit DA is not a major problem , eg: in the initial filtering stage of the power supply.
A capacitor meter cannot detect faults in capacitors , though its reading can give a clue as to whether there may be a fault.
As all yours measure close to original value they probably don't have major faults , and as reinforced by your listening.
For now I recommend you put the two that measure largest capacitance into the middle position of the filter ,
and the two that measure lowest in capacitance into the output of the filter - that is where the woofer is connected.
That is better for sound if none are significantly leaking charge ,
but if any are significantly leaking charge they will cause less harm to your amplifier if they are in the output position of the filter.
To test for leaking charge , remove all from the crossover.
Obtain a new or little used 9 volt battery .
Use some pieces of wire and Alligator clips or similar and connect each electro cap separately to the battery terminals for a few minutes.
Disconnect the cap and place it somewhere its connecting leads cannot be short circuited to each other , eg: place on DRY wood , plastic , cardboard , paper.
Next you will need a DC voltmeter , or a Multimeter with a DC voltage range.
Set the range to measure 9 volts well and then measure the voltage of the disconnected battery , and write that somewhere so as to not forget.
Wait at least 2 hours , then measure the DC voltage remaining across each capacitor - each one separately - not all connected together.
If any measure more than about 1 volt less than the battery they are deteriorated.
If any measure more than about 2 volts less than the battery I recommend you do not use those ones.
The longer you wait , the more the caps will discharge ,
and if you measure them after 24 hours there will likely be very little voltage remaining ,
but if a cap cannot hold about 90% of its voltage for at least 2 hours than I recommend to not use it.
{ The only exception to that is for large electros in the initial filtering stage of an amplifier , where after about 2 hours about 80% of initial charge holding may suffice.}
Eventually those old electros will fail.
If you cannot afford Polypropylene caps for the woofer filter ,
then consider Solen's PEMT Polyester capacitors - they are much lower price ,
and a bit thinner than the Solen polypropylenes , though slightly longer.
Buy 33uF and 39uF and connect in Parallel pairs :- 33//39 = 72uF.
Connect the resistors I originally recommended in Series with each of these Parallel pairs for each filter position.
Polyester caps have less DA than electros , including less than the old Alcaps , thus you will get clearer bass sound , BUT it will not be as clear as with Polypropylene caps.
NOTE:- I am not recommending this as optimum , I am recommending it as a Compromise.
I would not do it , except in loudspeakers with mediocre quality drivers.
Similarly , I will not use any type Solen caps in midrange and treble filters until I am convinced their quality has been improved.
{ It may have been , but I do not know , however quite obviously they are better audio quality than the old caps that were deteriorated in the 44s ,
but if you were to hear the 44s with at least ClarityCap PX series to midrange and tweeter ...}
Given all those other classic old loudspeakers you have , I recommend you try ClarityCap PX at least in those if their drivers are still working well.
In the 3-way speakers you can use Solen or Axon True Cap in woofer filters.
Post some more here after you have tested your old caps for leakage , or made any other changes.
Hi TechnoDweeb ,
I will comment on all four of your posts 272 <---> 275 above in order.
If you absolutely had to buy all from one source , then I would have from Madisound in USA ,
and if only from Canada , then Parts Connexion despite higher price because higher quality ,
however given what you have done , let us continue ...
Your assembly procedure is good DIY , do one crossover and listen to it in comparison to the other.
This is how one hears whatever degree of improvement.
If I read correctly on the Solen web-site , all their resistors are 10 watt ,
thus should not get hot , however they are very large thus take up a lot of space.
You can cut away a little of the foam at each of the places where it touches a resistor ,
and with the remainder of the foam un-cut , its pressure against the other components of the crossover will prevent the cut-away surfaces from touching the resistors.
This type of foam must not be allowed to get hot , or it will deteriorate to eventual degree to be useless for sound absorption.
Worse , if it gets very hot it will burn - inside the speaker box.
Woofer pushing onto the foam will not cause a problem , because that woofer will not survive sufficient power to overheat before very audible distortion ,
and thus its magnet will not get hot enough to affect the foam , unless it is played for a long while at audible distortion.
{ Put your son in a pool if he continues to beat you - he may need to learn to respect his father sufficiently to realize that beating him is not the thing to do
... however if he is under 18 years of age you may prefer to tolerate his competiveness.}
Highs will appear sharper because your memory of their sound is with the interim installed electrolytic capacitors in the tweeter filter.
Celestion did not use electrolytic caps there , but used Paper-in-Oil caps in the original version and Mylar {polyester} caps in the Mark II version.
If the highs remain too sharp for your liking , then install 0.33 or 0.47 ohms in Series with the filter's 4uF cap
- at whichever end of the cap is easiest to fit it on the board.
A 5 watt resistor will be sufficient , as it will not get hot.
I would try 0.33 ohms first , and later if sound still not good even with 0.47 I would replace the Solen caps with at least ClarityCap PX series.
I did not recommend electrolytic caps for the woofer filter ,
and now you have at least heard why ...
Changing the middle position 68uF for an 82uF electro would increase the filtering ,
but not likely improve the sound much ... and I think you may realize that now after hearing result with the original caps back in.
Why did this occur ?
(1)- you are very lucky that the originals are still in sufficiently useable condition.
(2)- those black Alcap brand were specifically designed for loudspeaker passive crossovers.
They were much better made than general-purpose non-polar electros were at that time ,
and than most non-polar electros are now , including obviously Solen's.
(3)- I understand that some DIYers can be confused when they see electrolytic caps in their quite good sounding amplifiers ,
but read recommendations to not use electros in passive crossovers.
I can explain why electros can work better in amps than in passive crossovers , however it will be lengthy.
For now , consider this :- a moving coil speaker driver is a generator of signal as well as a reproducer.
It sends a voltage back into the crossover.
This back-EMF mixes with the stored signal voltage of the Dielectric Absorption of an electro cap ,
and as each is delayed in time/phase differently to the other the resultant addition of their voltages is non-linear with respect to the frequency spectrum of the original signal ,
thus the significant change of sound ,
and more-so because the speaker's back-EMF is NOT the same frequency spectrum as the original signal but includes resonances caused by the mechanical aspects of the speaker cone.
To minimize this audibly unpleasant effect capacitors with as low as possible Dielectric Absorption { DA } must be used.
In an amplifier there is no significant internal generated and delayed back-EMF ,
unless a very poorly designed amp , thus the DA effects of electros in amps is less audible ,
and in some sections of an amp circuit DA is not a major problem , eg: in the initial filtering stage of the power supply.
A capacitor meter cannot detect faults in capacitors , though its reading can give a clue as to whether there may be a fault.
As all yours measure close to original value they probably don't have major faults , and as reinforced by your listening.
For now I recommend you put the two that measure largest capacitance into the middle position of the filter ,
and the two that measure lowest in capacitance into the output of the filter - that is where the woofer is connected.
That is better for sound if none are significantly leaking charge ,
but if any are significantly leaking charge they will cause less harm to your amplifier if they are in the output position of the filter.
To test for leaking charge , remove all from the crossover.
Obtain a new or little used 9 volt battery .
Use some pieces of wire and Alligator clips or similar and connect each electro cap separately to the battery terminals for a few minutes.
Disconnect the cap and place it somewhere its connecting leads cannot be short circuited to each other , eg: place on DRY wood , plastic , cardboard , paper.
Next you will need a DC voltmeter , or a Multimeter with a DC voltage range.
Set the range to measure 9 volts well and then measure the voltage of the disconnected battery , and write that somewhere so as to not forget.
Wait at least 2 hours , then measure the DC voltage remaining across each capacitor - each one separately - not all connected together.
If any measure more than about 1 volt less than the battery they are deteriorated.
If any measure more than about 2 volts less than the battery I recommend you do not use those ones.
The longer you wait , the more the caps will discharge ,
and if you measure them after 24 hours there will likely be very little voltage remaining ,
but if a cap cannot hold about 90% of its voltage for at least 2 hours than I recommend to not use it.
{ The only exception to that is for large electros in the initial filtering stage of an amplifier , where after about 2 hours about 80% of initial charge holding may suffice.}
Eventually those old electros will fail.
If you cannot afford Polypropylene caps for the woofer filter ,
then consider Solen's PEMT Polyester capacitors - they are much lower price ,
and a bit thinner than the Solen polypropylenes , though slightly longer.
Buy 33uF and 39uF and connect in Parallel pairs :- 33//39 = 72uF.
Connect the resistors I originally recommended in Series with each of these Parallel pairs for each filter position.
Polyester caps have less DA than electros , including less than the old Alcaps , thus you will get clearer bass sound , BUT it will not be as clear as with Polypropylene caps.
NOTE:- I am not recommending this as optimum , I am recommending it as a Compromise.
I would not do it , except in loudspeakers with mediocre quality drivers.
Similarly , I will not use any type Solen caps in midrange and treble filters until I am convinced their quality has been improved.
{ It may have been , but I do not know , however quite obviously they are better audio quality than the old caps that were deteriorated in the 44s ,
but if you were to hear the 44s with at least ClarityCap PX series to midrange and tweeter ...}
Given all those other classic old loudspeakers you have , I recommend you try ClarityCap PX at least in those if their drivers are still working well.
In the 3-way speakers you can use Solen or Axon True Cap in woofer filters.
Post some more here after you have tested your old caps for leakage , or made any other changes.
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Hi Alan,
Thanks for all the great advice. I don't think I would have tried this without you advising me every step of the way.
To clarify, I did buy Fast Capacitors 250v PA Series Metallized Polypropylene for the mids and high frequencies. I only bought the electrolytic's for the low frequency, in part to experiment, and secondly, because I had a very tight limit on my credit card after my Christmas cheers. That is also why I wanted to buy from only one source. I have no regrets though, and have learned a lot! My next recap will be using Clarity Caps. Most likely will be the Kef Concerto's. I have read that you love these speakers, and I have to agree. Initially, it was close, but as my ears adjusted to the Kef's, I grew to love them more and more. There are still two more flavours of Kef's I want to try out. Eventually.
Back to the Ditton 44s. I followed your advice and cut the foam in order to leave some space around the resisters. However I have been extremely busy, and didn't have time to test the 72 uf caps before I brought them to their new owners place. He was very happy with my work, and I ended up bringing back a Yamaha M-40 power amp. What can I say? I am obsessed!
It was a difficult decision. I had the Ditton 44s on the other side of the room from the Kef's, and by ABing them, there were some songs that the 44s shone, but most of the songs were better with the Kef's to my ears, my girlfriends ears, and my daughter's and room-mate's ears. Now that I know much better what I want, I think it will get easier.
I am going to part with more speakers, but I have a few speaker rebuild projects to do to get there. I want to do the Paisley's, restore a pair of DCM Time Window 350's including the surrounds, and possibly modify the Heresy 1s crossovers. I also need to sell my Sansui 9090. I'll eventually replace the JBLs, but I wanted some big assed speakers for the Bose when it is ready. This is really a lot of fun!
Thanks for all the great advice. I don't think I would have tried this without you advising me every step of the way.
To clarify, I did buy Fast Capacitors 250v PA Series Metallized Polypropylene for the mids and high frequencies. I only bought the electrolytic's for the low frequency, in part to experiment, and secondly, because I had a very tight limit on my credit card after my Christmas cheers. That is also why I wanted to buy from only one source. I have no regrets though, and have learned a lot! My next recap will be using Clarity Caps. Most likely will be the Kef Concerto's. I have read that you love these speakers, and I have to agree. Initially, it was close, but as my ears adjusted to the Kef's, I grew to love them more and more. There are still two more flavours of Kef's I want to try out. Eventually.
Back to the Ditton 44s. I followed your advice and cut the foam in order to leave some space around the resisters. However I have been extremely busy, and didn't have time to test the 72 uf caps before I brought them to their new owners place. He was very happy with my work, and I ended up bringing back a Yamaha M-40 power amp. What can I say? I am obsessed!
It was a difficult decision. I had the Ditton 44s on the other side of the room from the Kef's, and by ABing them, there were some songs that the 44s shone, but most of the songs were better with the Kef's to my ears, my girlfriends ears, and my daughter's and room-mate's ears. Now that I know much better what I want, I think it will get easier.
I am going to part with more speakers, but I have a few speaker rebuild projects to do to get there. I want to do the Paisley's, restore a pair of DCM Time Window 350's including the surrounds, and possibly modify the Heresy 1s crossovers. I also need to sell my Sansui 9090. I'll eventually replace the JBLs, but I wanted some big assed speakers for the Bose when it is ready. This is really a lot of fun!
another Correction to Schematic in #263 on Page 27 ; plus a response to #277 above
To anyone following this reconditioning of the 44 crossover:
TechnoDweeb's Schematic in #263 on Page 27 contains another error that I did not previously draw specific attention to.
C1 needs a resistor in Series - 1 ohm/5 watt , similar to C2 which is to have 1.5 ohm/5 watt in the position shown.
As I posted in #265 on Page 27 , the original Celestion HF2000 tweeter does not need a resistor, thus omit R4 ,
and as I posted in #270 , R3 is to be moved to the other side of the junction so as to be in Series with C3 before the inductors.
R3 is 1.8 ohm/5watt.
R2 is correct - use 2.7 ohm/5 watt.
--- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- ---
Hi TechnoDweeb ,
after all my posting about reconditioning the crossover you sell the 44s !
I should be charging a Commission , percentage of the sale price !!
If the buyer does not know about this web-site , I hope you referred him to this thread ,
because he will need to replace those old caps in the woofer filter at some point in the future.
I recommend you advise him to start with my post #260 on Page 26 and proceed through to this post ,
and buy the Axon capacitors whilst the price is good , and before they are all sold.
I hope you didn't give him the poor sound new electrolytic capacitors.
Use those in a Lo-Fi loudspeaker only !
The T27 tweeter in the original KEF Concerto is not the same T27 that was used in later KEF loudspeakers ,
thus when you upgrade the capacitors use the same cap values as in the old crossover ,
and not the different ones used in later KEFs ,
and especially not the 104AB modification , because it will not work with the earlier T27.
To anyone following this reconditioning of the 44 crossover:
TechnoDweeb's Schematic in #263 on Page 27 contains another error that I did not previously draw specific attention to.
C1 needs a resistor in Series - 1 ohm/5 watt , similar to C2 which is to have 1.5 ohm/5 watt in the position shown.
As I posted in #265 on Page 27 , the original Celestion HF2000 tweeter does not need a resistor, thus omit R4 ,
and as I posted in #270 , R3 is to be moved to the other side of the junction so as to be in Series with C3 before the inductors.
R3 is 1.8 ohm/5watt.
R2 is correct - use 2.7 ohm/5 watt.
--- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- ---
Hi TechnoDweeb ,
after all my posting about reconditioning the crossover you sell the 44s !
I should be charging a Commission , percentage of the sale price !!
If the buyer does not know about this web-site , I hope you referred him to this thread ,
because he will need to replace those old caps in the woofer filter at some point in the future.
I recommend you advise him to start with my post #260 on Page 26 and proceed through to this post ,
and buy the Axon capacitors whilst the price is good , and before they are all sold.
I hope you didn't give him the poor sound new electrolytic capacitors.
Use those in a Lo-Fi loudspeaker only !
The T27 tweeter in the original KEF Concerto is not the same T27 that was used in later KEF loudspeakers ,
thus when you upgrade the capacitors use the same cap values as in the old crossover ,
and not the different ones used in later KEFs ,
and especially not the 104AB modification , because it will not work with the earlier T27.
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Hi Alan,
I'm sorry you feel this way. I never had any intention of selling the 44s when I started this process. In the end, I loved the sound of the Kef Concerto's much more than the Ditton 44s. Also, I only sold the 44s for what I paid plus the cost of the crossover parts. I didn't make any money on them. I never expected or planned to, when I undertook the crossover rebuild. BTW, the only electrolytics that I bought were for the LF, for experimental purposes. And no, I removed them and put back the originals. At the time I ordered the parts to rebuild the crossovers, I was very tight on cash. I had bought so much audio equipment in my obsession of finding the "sound" I was looking for, I put myself in tighter financial straits than I should have. Spending an additional $50 on the better LF caps was not an option at that time.
Now that I have better amplification, I am now looking for a second pair of speakers for my second vintage audio set up. I will be selling my Sansui 9090 and the MAC1900. Although I love the looks of the MAC1900, it does not drive 4 ohm speakers or even the Paisley AE400's I have sufficiently. And since I only have limited space, I need to make room in my pocket book, and my house. With the Kenwood Supreme 500, the Yamaha M-40, and the Bose 1801, I think I have plenty of clean power. We will see once the Bose 1801 is restored which amp I will keep between the M-40 and the 1801.
I have even toyed with the idea of buying back the Ditton 66s, but I think the guy who bought them from me has sold them. Now that I have sufficient amplification, I would be able to hear them the way they are supposed to sound. Not sure what I will end up with for my second set of speakers. I may decide to go all out and get something really special with the hopes that this will kill my upgrade-itus. As things stand for now though, the Kef Concerto's are staying. I just sold the 104aBs. They never really meshed with my music preferences or my equipment, and i found the bass was lacking. I went as far as buying a subwoofer, but no matter what I tried, the set-up never really worked. The sub is gone too. But the guy who bought 104aB's loves them. Interestingly, the Concerto's although considered a really good Jazz or Classical speaker, are also really really good with just about all my music tastes except for Led Zeppelin and Billy Idol type music. And they project so well, even at very low volumes. The low frequency in them is stunning! I recently found another pair of speakers that are very comparable to the Concerto's in everything except low frequency. There isn't much information on them on the web. Wharfedale Dovedale III! The imaging is really special! It is like the sound goes into focus when I play them. Quite extraordinary!
Once I get more space, I will likely start the Kef Restoration, and will document it on a new thread here in DIY Audio. Thanks so much for all your help. I realize my flipping around like this has been frustrating for you, but from my perspective, I am just looking for the elusive "sound'. I think I am getting there.
Response to #279
Hi TechnoDweeb ,
You have taken my comment about you selling the 44s a bit too seriously ,
as really it is entirely an owner's business what he does with his loudspeakers ,
thus if I am silly enough to spend time posting advice I get what I deserve.
Regarding Wharfedale Dovedale III , I would have to hear them again to remember their specific character , etc ...
however I think they had a simpler crossover than the Ditton 44 , thus that may be part of what you prefer in their sound ,
however a 44 can be got to sound quite a bit better than what only replacing capacitors causes ,
but to achieve more does require a lot of time and some more money.
KEF 104aB will never work with a sub-woofer , unless its ABR/Passive Radiator is removed and the resultant baffle hole rigidly covered.
KEF Concerto definitely has a different bass sound to 104aB , and also different in the midrange ,
however as different listeners prefer different aspects of sound , one has to hear to decide , as it seems you are doing ...
and also with all those amplifiers/receivers you buy ...
In general a subwoofer cannot be combined well with a vented/ported loudspeaker either ,
unless the vent/port is thoroughly blocked.
McIntosh 1900 should drive a KEF Concerto fairly well , unless you have a very large room , or want very loud sound.
Whoever is fixing the Bose 1801 for you had better get it working safely , or it will blow and damage the drivers in your vintage speakers ,
and probably the drivers in most modern loudspeakers also !
I agree that KEF Concerto sounds good even at low volume , and whilst they will play fairly loud , they are not a Headbanger loudspeaker ...
so stay with your JBLs , or a Cerwin Vega model ... hear some.
I don't know the sounds of many of the vintage USA and Canadian loudspeakers ,
and some of the UK speakers that work well for Rock may not be available where you are ,
but again , preference in sound is hard to predict unless one has given an example of a loudspeaker that one likes ...
which the person you are asking would have to have heard also.
As you didn't like the 44 sufficiently to keep , and also not KEF 104aB , I doubt you will find Celestion 66 to be what you are searching for ,
because it is like a 44 with a 104 type bass response added , though a 66 does play lower pitched bass notes to greater degree than a 104 can ,
however I think it may be the ABR bass type sound that you do not like ,
and that is fair enough , as some other listeners do not like it either ,
and I like it only for some things ... and similarly myself regarding ported/vented loudspeakers.
Hi TechnoDweeb ,
You have taken my comment about you selling the 44s a bit too seriously ,
as really it is entirely an owner's business what he does with his loudspeakers ,
thus if I am silly enough to spend time posting advice I get what I deserve.
Regarding Wharfedale Dovedale III , I would have to hear them again to remember their specific character , etc ...
however I think they had a simpler crossover than the Ditton 44 , thus that may be part of what you prefer in their sound ,
however a 44 can be got to sound quite a bit better than what only replacing capacitors causes ,
but to achieve more does require a lot of time and some more money.
KEF 104aB will never work with a sub-woofer , unless its ABR/Passive Radiator is removed and the resultant baffle hole rigidly covered.
KEF Concerto definitely has a different bass sound to 104aB , and also different in the midrange ,
however as different listeners prefer different aspects of sound , one has to hear to decide , as it seems you are doing ...
and also with all those amplifiers/receivers you buy ...
In general a subwoofer cannot be combined well with a vented/ported loudspeaker either ,
unless the vent/port is thoroughly blocked.
McIntosh 1900 should drive a KEF Concerto fairly well , unless you have a very large room , or want very loud sound.
Whoever is fixing the Bose 1801 for you had better get it working safely , or it will blow and damage the drivers in your vintage speakers ,
and probably the drivers in most modern loudspeakers also !
I agree that KEF Concerto sounds good even at low volume , and whilst they will play fairly loud , they are not a Headbanger loudspeaker ...
so stay with your JBLs , or a Cerwin Vega model ... hear some.
I don't know the sounds of many of the vintage USA and Canadian loudspeakers ,
and some of the UK speakers that work well for Rock may not be available where you are ,
but again , preference in sound is hard to predict unless one has given an example of a loudspeaker that one likes ...
which the person you are asking would have to have heard also.
As you didn't like the 44 sufficiently to keep , and also not KEF 104aB , I doubt you will find Celestion 66 to be what you are searching for ,
because it is like a 44 with a 104 type bass response added , though a 66 does play lower pitched bass notes to greater degree than a 104 can ,
however I think it may be the ABR bass type sound that you do not like ,
and that is fair enough , as some other listeners do not like it either ,
and I like it only for some things ... and similarly myself regarding ported/vented loudspeakers.
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