Noob requiring loud speaker guidance

[hey_homes]

Hey guys, my name's Rob and this is my first post on this forum.

I've recently begun building a home made boombox using car speakers and some SLA batteries and through that project I've become keen on building my own speakers for home use. However, upon reading some of the vast quantities of speaker theory and anecdotes available on the internet I'm rather confused and feel like I need some guidance.

I suppose the best way to start would be to explain what I want out of my speakers. I want speakers that are robust and can deliver a decent amount of volume (the kind of volume that will satisfy revellers who visit for the odd house party) - this is my most important requirement. And obviously I would like them to sound good, but I don't require an extreme audiophile standard.

I would like the speakers to be suitable for a wide range of music and I plan on eventually augmenting my setup with a sub. I like to play drum and bass when no one is around to complain so bass is of great importance.

I would greatly appreciate any advice and especially some links to popular or suitable loudspeaker designs. I need a good starting point because at the moment it's all a bit daunting.

Many thanks!

 

[Glowbug]

Welcome

You didn't state a budget, but these: http://www.parts-express.com/projectshowcase/magna/index.html look like they'd be great party speakers And the hard part of designing the Xover has already been done, the construction itself isn't too bad...

 

[hey_homes]

Welcome

You didn't state a budget, but these: http://www.parts-express.com/projectshowcase/magna/index.html look like they'd be great party speakers And the hard part of designing the Xover has already been done, the construction itself isn't too bad...

I'd say if I could get away with NZ$1000 I'd be pretty happy (not all in one go hopefully). That's roughly US$700. I could definitely extend the budget further, but would prefer to keep it tight especially given that I'm a beginner.

The speakers you've linked to look perfect (if not a little daunting).

 

[chris661]

You've given us most of the points needed, the ones we don't know are maximum size it can be, and your budget - on the low price end of the scale, a pair of PA speakers would do nicely - further up, there's the bigger stuff with lower bass, and a nicer sound. You get what you pay for.

Chris

 

[hey_homes]

Hmm I replied to Glowbug with my budget but it doesn't appear to have been submitted...

I'd like to do it for less than NZ$1000 (US$700) and size isn't really an issue. My current speakers are large "Tamon" things which have 12" woofers. But they suck, hence my desire to upgrade.

The speakers in Glowbug's link look wicked but might be a bit tricky for me to tackle first up. But they look like they deliver the performance I desire.

 

[Brian Kingsbury]

I'll second Glowbug's recommendation of a 3-way speaker since you want something loud and with good bass, although I have no knowledge of the particular speaker he linked to. You should specify a budget and an honest evaluation of how comfortable you are with building enclosures, reading schematics, wiring crossovers etc so people can make a good recommendation. These considerations are important so people can recommend something that matches your current skill level so you'll have a successful build that you're happy with in the end. If you own no tools and have never built a box, you might be happy buying a pre-built enclosure. If you own some tools and don't mind making some sawdust you can save money and make your own enclosures and save some $$ but it can be daunting.

I personally just finished my first pair of speakers, Madisound Recession Buster References, although I'd made a car sub box before. I'd HIGHLY recommend this speaker by the way, it's an amazing speaker at a VERY reasonable price. I didn't own any tools so I ended up spending just as much for the tools as I did for the speakers themselves. While I was planning my build, I benefited alot from studying HTguide's diy forum where they have alot of build threads. Their forums really helped me because I could see lots of pictures of how others accomplished the various aspects of their builds (joints, bracing, clamping, what tools I'd need, what kind of glue etc). The devil is in the details so pay close attention to how the masters do things!

 

[hey_homes]

I'll second Glowbug's recommendation of a 3-way speaker since you want something loud and with good bass, although I have no knowledge of the particular speaker he linked to. You should specify a budget and an honest evaluation of how comfortable you are with building enclosures, reading schematics, wiring crossovers etc so people can make a good recommendation. These considerations are important so people can recommend something that matches your current skill level so you'll have a successful build that you're happy with in the end. If you own no tools and have never built a box, you might be happy buying a pre-built enclosure. If you own some tools and don't mind making some sawdust you can save money and make your own enclosures and save some $$ but it can be daunting.

Okay, my skills in the above areas (building enclosures, reading schematics and wiring crossovers) are non-existant. They are things i have never attempted. I'm hoping to undertake some speaker builds with a friend and plan to rely heavily on skilled individuals in my acquaintance for the various stages of construction and assembly.

For instance, my girlfirend's dad has all the tools needed for woodworking and, although I don't have a great mind for electronics, I work at a TV station where I could ask the engineers for assistance. Or my Uncle who is a telecom engineer.

But yes, the simpler the better for the first build.

 

[picowallspeaker]

If you really want to go with "live" SPL levels and following the path of buying kits , why not the Zaph Audio one at Madisound ? I'm referring to the "tower" one , with 8 woofers , 2 tweeters and 2 xovers already mounted.
My only suggestion would be to change the tweeter , probably you'd need a "pro" one , like Eminence or B&C units.
Why don't you first investigate on your Tamon drivers ? Try to stick 'em to a surface and play them loud ...probably is a problem of bad box design , not the speaker itself.

 

[hasaudio.co.nz]

Good to see a fellow kiwi hitting the diy scene!

 

[Brian Kingsbury]

Okay, my skills in the above areas (building enclosures, reading schematics and wiring crossovers) are non-existant. They are things i have never attempted. I'm hoping to undertake some speaker builds with a friend and plan to rely heavily on skilled individuals in my acquaintance for the various stages of construction and assembly.

For instance, my girlfirend's dad has all the tools needed for woodworking and, although I don't have a great mind for electronics, I work at a TV station where I could ask the engineers for assistance. Or my Uncle who is a telecom engineer.

But yes, the simpler the better for the first build.

Based on your response, you're going to want a kit that has the crossovers already assembled. Doing the crossover is a whole mess you don't want to deal with if still don't understand how to read a schematic. It's not really hard per se, but there's alot of room for error if you don't know what you're doing.

Your main criteria was a loud system with good bass and a 3-way seems to fit your desire. However, building a 3-way enclosure is far more difficult than building a 2-way because of it's inherently large size and requiring multiple interal chambers for each driver. I think a nice balance would be to build a 2-way and build a diy subwoofer as well.

I don't have any experience with diy home sub kits so i'll leave that to someone with more knowledge than me to recommend a good one. There's plenty out there though and most are fairly easy to construct. Keep in mind to pick one with a relatively basic enclosure.

As for the 2-way, I'll stick to my recommendation of the Madisound RBR kit ($400 + accessories). The boxes are small enough it will be simple to put together. It really is absolutely amazing for the price and sounds FAR bigger than it actually is. I'd say they compare favorably to my previous speakers, $3500/pr Von Schweikert VR-4's in terms of sound quality. Do the sealed version and add a subwoofer and you and your friends will be absolutely blown away by the sound.

You can get enclosures pre-built for the RBR kit, but, assuming you have access to a router/table saw, you should at least TRY to build your own enclosures. I had no woodworking experience whatsoever and i've made a sub box and the RBR ported kit with no help. MDF is cheap so you've got nothing to lose by trying. Also, theres a much higher degree of satisfaction when YOU actually make it. When building a kit with pre-fab enclosures, you're just taking some screws and a drill and assembling someone elses work. If you ask me, though, that takes all the fun out of it. Don't take the Y out of DIY!

 

[Glowbug]

I'll second the RBR recommendation - I haven't heard the SB tweet yet, but those ScanSpeak Revs are some of my favorite mids

 

[hey_homes]

That RBR Kit looks really good. I just hope that special price will stick around for a little while so I can get some spends.

 

[Brian Kingsbury]

Don't wait too long. I ordered my kit from madisound about 3 weeks ago and at the time they told me they only expected their supply of kits to last another 2-3 weeks then the kit would be discontinued. I read somewhere they had purchased a large stock of the midwoofers for a big discount because they were no longer going to be manufactured. Once they're gone, that's it.

 

[CCU]

Hey
I can see you want to play LOUD!!!
These are just what you are looking for
http://www.speakerbuilder.dk/content/getPage.asp?id=39
Sorry the text is in danish, but there is everything you need for the construction of the speakers.

i promis you these are amazing speakers! These speakers do NOT have a linier frequency responce. they are a little higher in the mid-bas to low bas. i diffinetly think that i what you want/need.
All the drivers are high value units from peerless. great quality

by the way if your nabours live within 500 meters radius... they will HATE you, because they are so loud

Edit: the kabinet measurements are in centimeters. the mid and woofers are parallel in the crossover(only one of each driver shown)

 

[5th element]

I would agree with picowallspeaker and plumb for the

Zaph Audio ZA5.5

http://www.madisound.com/catalog/product_info.php?cPath=35_425&products_id=8652

Although the rating buster is an awesome deal, are we not perhaps forgetting the requirement for loud listening levels?

The RBR kit uses a standard scan 5.5" that has 84.5 dB sensitivity. I believe Jed designed these with 3dB BSC reducing the overall sensitivity to 81.5dB. This is on the low side of low and a single 5.5" wont go anywhere near party loud. Sure you might be surprised at how loud one can go, but lets not be fooling ourselves here.


The ZA kit...

http://www.zaphaudio.com/ZA5/

(scroll down you're after the ZA5.5tt - MMTMM 2.5-way vertical array)

is nothing short of a miracle performance vs price wise. The ZA14s performance is only a tad below the SEAS W15CY001s that cost 4 times the price. You said you're not after audiophile performance, but the RBR and ZA14s offer this in spades.

The great thing about the ZA5.5 is it has a full 89 dB sensitivity and instead of the RBR's single 5.5" driver you've got 4 working together. They should handle greater volumes far more graciously.

On another note, the individual drivers in the ZA design are cheap, which is a very good thing where parties are concerned. You'd be mortified if a party guest were to accidentally puncture the cone of one of the scan drivers, they are $200+ to replace(that's if you can even buy them, I can't see the shielded RBRs scan driver on the madisound site outside of the kit). Not to mention if you blow something when someone gets a bit too friendly with the volume control...

If you were to blow the Vifa DQ25SC16-04 in the ZA5.5's you'd be set back the massive sum of $13.10. Ouch.

I know which I'd rather go for.

Another thing to note is the massive number of designs Zaph has created around the ZA14 and the DQ25. If you were to build the ZA5.5s now, but at a later date need a smaller loudspeaker due to limited space. No problem, just pick another one of the smaller designs, all you need is a new box and xover and you're sorted.

 

[Brian Kingsbury]

I also checked out the zaph kits before I built my RBR's and ruled them out based on a number of reasons. First and foremost, the RBR is just an amazing speaker for the price - and $50 less than the zaph kit. It does this by using one very high quality tweeter/midwoofer combo instead of 4 budget midwoofers and a budget tweeter. The little bit you lose in max SPL you will gain twice over in sound quality, and quality is alot harder to come by than SPL. If you build the RBR in a sealed box and combo it with a sub that will help increase the systems power handling and remove most of the strain on the woofer caused by playing low frequencies at loud volume.


Btw, I know 81db seems low and you're probably worried it won't be 'loud' but I can assure you that's not the case. The RBR kit hooked up to my 70watt yamaha avr will easily play louder than I can get away with without upsetting my neighbors. Unless you have an execeptionally huge room or plan on driving them with a single ended tube amp the RBR will play plenty loud to please your friends. And you can take the extra $50 you saved compared to the zaph kit and put it into a better sub. That's all most people care about anyway

 

[hey_homes]

I also checked out the zaph kits before I built my RBR's and ruled them out based on a number of reasons. First and foremost, the RBR is just an amazing speaker for the price - and $50 less than the zaph kit. It does this by using one very high quality tweeter/midwoofer combo instead of 4 budget midwoofers and a budget tweeter. The little bit you lose in max SPL you will gain twice over in sound quality, and quality is alot harder to come by than SPL. If you build the RBR in a sealed box and combo it with a sub that will help increase the systems power handling and remove most of the strain on the woofer caused by playing low frequencies at loud volume.

If I were to add a sub at a later date, what would I have to do to filter the sub frequencies from the woofer? Does that come down to amp EQ settings and whatnot? Or is an active crossover required?

I sort of get lost at this point. My amp is an old but pretty powerful Aiwa and it only has outputs for four speakers and there is no output for a sub.

 

[5th element]

I also checked out the zaph kits before I built my RBR's and ruled them out based on a number of reasons. First and foremost, the RBR is just an amazing speaker for the price - and $50 less than the zaph kit. It does this by using one very high quality tweeter/midwoofer combo instead of 4 budget midwoofers and a budget tweeter.

You seem to have missed the point. The ZA14 driver may be budget in price, but it most certainly isn't in performance. It IS comparable to the Seas Excel W15CY001, which is on the same level as the scan driver. You just take your pick on what you prefer, hard cone or soft cone.

The little bit you lose in max SPL you will gain twice over in sound quality, and quality is alot harder to come by than SPL.

I don't think that the RBR will sound better then the ZA5.5, just different. The ZA14 already has distortion figures equal to the scan driver as it is. Parallel several of them together and you've just improved upon an already excellent situation.

The vifa DQ25 tweeter also performs excellently. Although the SB acoustics dimple tweeter does perform slightly better, it's not anything to get excited about.

If you build the RBR in a sealed box and combo it with a sub that will help increase the systems power handling and remove most of the strain on the woofer caused by playing low frequencies at loud volume.

This I agree with, but to make it work you need to cut the low frequencies entirely from the RBR.

Btw, I know 81db seems low and you're probably worried it won't be 'loud' but I can assure you that's not the case. The RBR kit hooked up to my 70watt yamaha avr will easily play louder than I can get away with without upsetting my neighbors.

Isn't this what parties are all about? Whenever the students on either side of us have parties the music goes quite a bit louder then what would be considered upsetting.

I've got a pair of loudspeakers here with 81dB sensitivity, something similar in nature to the RBR. They do go reasonably loud, yes, but nothing close to how loud the students like to play it at parties, and most certainly would not be loud enough for a decent sized room under party considerations.

If its the kind of party where you want music playing in the main room to give loud levels elsewhere in the house, you'll have issues with the RBR. If everyone is going to be in the same room and want to be able to hear what the person next to them is saying then the RBR might be okay.

I don't think it's correct in automatically assuming that the RBR is in an entirely different league, to the ZA5.5 when it comes to sound quality. The specs certainly don't agree with that.

If you are building a pair of loudspeakers and the maximum SPL they can produce is something of a concern, the ZA5.5 would be the obvious choice to make. They won't go as low in the bass as the RBR goes, but if you're adding a sub later on, that will be sorted then.

 

[5th element]

My amp is an old but pretty powerful Aiwa

What specific model is it?

If I were to add a sub at a later date, what would I have to do to filter the sub frequencies from the woofer? Does that come down to amp EQ settings and whatnot? Or is an active crossover required?

An active crossover is required, yes, in one form or another.

I sort of get lost at this point. and it only has outputs for four speakers and there is no output for a sub.

In the traditional sense one would plug the sub into the pre outs of your main amplifier - that's if its got pre outs.

The pre outs would have their output controlled by the main volume control of the main amplifier. So as you increase the level to your speakers, you'd also increase the level to the sub.

This wouldn't however remove the bass frequencies from your main pair of loudspeakers.

What you'd need to do is remove the bass from the line level signal (what comes out of the pre outs), before it goes to the amplifier. But at the same time you also need a line level signal without the bass frequencies removed that you can feed the sub with.

If your amplifier happens to have a set of pre outs and pre ins, you would be in luck.

You can take the signal from the pre outs and split it into two. You'd feed the sub with one of these. The other one you'd feed into a crossover of some sort, to filter out the bass below 80hz or so (this could be a simple PLLXO ). Then you'd feed the signal after the PLLXO into the pre ins and you'd be sorted.

If you're amp doesn't have pre outs or pre ins, it'd be fairly 'simple', to open it up and organise it in such a way so that it would work. But if you've no idea about this kind of thing that might be asking too much.

 

[hey_homes]

Ok, thanks 5th element, that's very helpful.

I've noticed browsing around this site that some people use multiple amps. How would this work, just out of interest? Would one amp deal with the left source channel (powering the left speaker) and the other amp the right?