Suggest cheap tweeter Please

[sifis_samos]

Hi there.. Few weeks ago i rushed and made the mistake and bought the wrong woofer-tweeter combo and i just dont like the sound at all..tweeter is screaming while the woofer simply cand play ok above 2k..i ve crossed them at 3.7Khz...
So currently i am working on a Zaphs project, but i feel bad that my woofers are simply sitting around.my woofer is a Peerless 830657 . Please can you suggest me an - as cheap as possible - tweeter , that it will allow me to cross it to around1.7-2Khz to match better with these woofers?..i want to use them in my workshop where i spend 3-4 hours a week, driven both by a public adress mono amp - 60WRMS ...my box is a 12-13lts sealed.. the hole already made in my bafle for the tweeter is about 7cm.
I'd prefer Peerless-Vifa-Scanspeak tweeter as i can find them easily in Greece.
My current tweeters are Vifa BC25SC06-04 .. bbbrrrrrr ...

 

[tinitus]

Maybe this one http://oaudio.de/Loudspeaker-chassis/Tang-Band/Tweeter/W2-800::2.html
But needs a closed cup behind it

But problems you describe could come from xo malfunction
For one, according to Vifa specs its very high sensitivity
Do you use enough attenuation

btw, I can see that Zaph likes that tweeter, or think its ok, and it does look ok
But as said, its measured to be 95db

Maybe you just need to do some more xo work

 

[giralfino]

I can suggest a Vifa DX25. Here is what Zaph wrote about it:
"Smooth and extended response at both ends with mild 3dB depression in the whole top octave. Low Fs for a tweeter with no rear chamber. Good CSD. Excellent 2nd order HD above 1.8kHz, very bad 2nd order HD below 1Khz. Cross over 1.8kHz LR4 or 2.5kHz LR2. Very efficient with high power handling."

BTW, are you sure you leveled the tweeter output to the woofer one? There should be many dB of difference.

Ralf

 

[tinitus]

Dont waste too much money on that thing

Heres a design that use the Peerless 6"
http://www.xenophonics.net/indexeng.htm

 

[gainphile]

My own experience Hivi K1 if used below 2.4kHz. Look at zaph's distortion measurements.

el-cheapo.

 

[Dansk]

Vifa

Alternatively the Vifa XT25 is known to be extremely soft sounding, but should not be crossed any lower than 2 kHz.

 

[5th element]

I think first and foremost you need to try getting the most out of what you already have.

According to Zaphs results the BC25SC06 should be able to cross over decently at 2khz with a 4th order target. Although resonance is at a high ~1400hz it is sufficiently well damped so that it shouldnt't be much of a concern.

i just dont like the sound at all..tweeter is screaming

This could infact be the woofer 'screaming' rather then the tweeter. At 3.7khz the woofer is starting to become very peaky and unless that peak is notched out it's going to sound terrible.

Are you able to measure the drivers to see what it is you're hearing?

How are the speakers being positioned? And what's the room like you are listening to them in?

 

[sifis_samos]

well to be honest and exact, this was a very quick project so many things may not be corectly done... first to be exact, the mid ranges are too shallow and it has low control in bass,and it simply feels that or the woofer cant play ok above 1k-2k or the tweeter is crossed too high..as i understand i ve crossed them too high but from an experiment i made using a simple capacitor to cross the tweeter at 2K, leaving the woofer full range and playing the speakers at very low spl's it has still too shallow mids...so i was thiniking of a tweeter that can play well enough starting from 1.8-2K..i will totaly trow on the system not more than 15Wrms... another thought i made was to use a thole midrange and cross my tweeter higher, about 6-7K but i dont like the idea too much as i think that this will complicate things..
Listen i dont want the best sound out of this, i just want to hear same spl for all frequencies..nice tonal balance.
Last night i made a thorough search in my stuff and i found a pair of Tonsil GDWK 10/80 tweeters..Brand new!!..i must have them for about 7-8 years and never used them...do you know them?perhaps i can use them but i need to cut my baffle more...

 

[sifis_samos]

http://www.allegro.pl/item702828231_tonsil_gdwk_10_80_19_fabr_nowe_gwar_12_m.html#gallery

this is the tweeters i found..

 

[Dansk]

Throw away your tweeters and use the little 2' or 2,5' Peerless fullranges as very low crossed tweeters instead. They sound ridiculously good, especially in the midrange, considering their price.

 

[Inductor]

http://www.allegro.pl/item702828231_tonsil_gdwk_10_80_19_fabr_nowe_gwar_12_m.html#gallery

this is the tweeters i found..

Hi sifis_samos,
Your tweeter looks good (for another project maybe because Fs=1.5K is very high. Note that woofer is also high at 50Hz). Now (let's) try this xover and report after.
diyAudio Forums - Crossover for vifa 2 way setup - how can I find out what this crossover is doing?
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=143313

Where you see the resistor for the RLC (making it a high order xover) on the woofer, instead of a 6R0 start with a 4R/5R or lower, this brings up the 2K/3KHz frequency on the woofer at xover band, just adjust it for right level because midwoofer is very tricky at this range, ok?. Good luck.

(4R0 = mid at xover frequency too bright > make it higher value to/for a 6 ohm resistor.
Or start with the 6R0 and go the other way > make it brighter with a lower R.)

 

[5th element]

well first to be exact, the mid ranges are too shallow and it has low control in bass,and it simply feels that or the woofer cant play ok above 1k-2k

If you've not compensated for bafflestep, which it sounds as if you haven't, this will create a very thin sound and also one that sounds bass shy. The speaker would sound as if it lacks 'warmth'.

as i understand i ve crossed them too high but from an experiment i made using a simple capacitor to cross the tweeter at 2K, leaving the woofer full range and playing the speakers at very low spl's it has still too shallow mids

Leaving the woofer full range will sound pretty bad anyway, that peak at 4.5khz will sound 'tinny' and add roughness to the treble. Apart from the peak at 4.5khz, the response is fairly smooth and would work decently crossed up to 3khz. However because of the peak you would want to use it up to around 2khz and maybe with a notch.

The mids you say are missing wont be in the 1-2khz range, dips in this range usually make a loudspeaker sound easy on the ear and relaxed.

I am sure the lack of mids will simply be a combination of several things adding together.

1) No bafflestep compensation, as mentioned before, this will make the speaker sound thin, lacking in warmth, and unpleasant to listen to.
2) The woofer run full range, or even with a simple crossover wont sound great, this one needs a steep crossover at 2khz or so to make sure the peak at 4.5khz is attenuated. Without that it will add roughness to the treble and add to the problem of point 1.
3) The tweeter is very sensitive and without sufficient padding will just add to the problems of 1 and 2. Not only this the tweeter will need quite a steep crossover to work decently at 2khz, I doubt a simple cap will sound good.

What you need is a proper crossover, these two drivers can work decently together, but don't leave much room for flexability.

http://www.rjbaudio.com/Audiofiles/FRDtools.html

Can be used to achieve decent results from what I've read here. There also seems to be a good description on how to put the software into practice.

As a final word, buying other drivers will not solve this problem, even the highest quality drivers will sound bad without a decent crossover. I highly recommend you learn how to use the software linked.

 

[tinitus]

http://oaudio.de/Loudspeaker-chassis/NEW-SPEAKERS/W1-1070SE::643.html

http://oaudio.de/Loudspeaker-chassis/Tang-Band/Tweeter/W2-800::2.html

http://oaudio.de/Loudspeaker-chassis/OmnesAudio/Wide-Range/OmnesAudio-BB-3AL::719.html

I dont know much about them, but they may be crossed low, and are cheap

 

[Glowbug]

even the highest quality drivers will sound bad without a decent crossover.

QFT

 

[sifis_samos]

even the highest quality drivers will sound bad without a decent crossover.

man i really understand that what you mean, but i think you are talking for a diferent level...when i say sounding bad i mean REALLY BAD! so bad that even the most untrained person or simply everyone that has absolutely no knowledge about sound, will say wow it sounds horrible. can a wrong crossover do that huge diference?..(i am not talking about using a tweeter cross to a woofer ok?!)
I ve heard quite many home made designs using a non crossed at all woofer and a crossover for the tweeter using only an electrolytic (!) cap and they sounded from OK to Very nice!Not horrible...
So i think that sometimes no matter what you do with a crossover everything is toooo wrong!
Thats what i mean right now, in this thread about these speakers i am talking about..they sound BAD! So i dont think that a crossover or maybe baffle compensation or anything else may improve sound that much!..i do think that i simply need other speakers as the ones i have i think they are garbage!!!..

 

[tinitus]

You have not responded to whether you have attenuated the tweeter, or how
Nor have we seen any xo schematic, or anything else

Its more likely that what you hear is related to xo, rather than the tweeter itself
Unless its defect
Or its the woofer

 

[sifis_samos]

my friend i havent attenuated the tweeter at all and yes it plays much louder than the woofer.
I just didnt like the woofer performance in mids and thats why i just stoped experimenting with these speakers due to lack of time. i will checkup what parts i used in my crossover and will let you know.

 

[5th element]

can a wrong crossover do that huge diference?

YES!

Set some time aside to read through and learn how to use those programs I linked.

Where it is true that some drive units sound far better with a simple crossover (or non at all), some can sound painful.

As said before. You've got a simple first order network on the tweeter at a low frequency, this isn't optimal in the least for that tweeter and will most likely sound bad.

The tweeter is much more sensitive then the woofer and isn't being attenuated, this in itself will add to the effect of bad sound.

The woofers peak at 4.5khz isn't being controlled at all and will sound bad.

Bafflestep, more of the same thing.

All of these problems are similar in nature and will all add up to produce a sound like you describe.

Those two drivers are perfectly capable of working well together in a 2 way system, if used correctly. Don't lose hope with this, you've been given the tools to fix the problem, I suggest you use them.

And remember, one reason this forum exists is to help people, if you're having trouble with something at the linked website, just ask and I'm sure someone will be able to help you.

 

[sifis_samos]

wow that was a really nice answer...thank you man!..so this weekend i will try to figure some things and i will let you know.. the bad thing is that i dont have spare capacitors or coils to play with thus making it dificult to try diferent settings..for begining i will try to cross them to 2.2 - 2.5khz using a 2nd class crossover..afterwards i will try to figure out the rest. i ll keep u informed!

 

[5th element]

wow that was a really nice answer...thank you man!..so this weekend i will try to figure some things and i will let you know.. the bad thing is that i dont have spare capacitors or coils to play with thus making it dificult to try diferent settings..for begining i will try to cross them to 2.2 - 2.5khz using a 2nd class crossover..afterwards i will try to figure out the rest. i ll keep u informed!

Well if you get the programs working correctly you should be able to see if a 2nd order filter will be enough. As you're using the tweeter near its natural roll off, the 2nd order filter + the drivers natural roll off could possibly sum to a 4th order combination anyway.

If you do come up with something, you can post the crossover here for someone to look over.