Iconic and GPA are two different companies. Some time ago i contacted Iconic, and was informed, that they did not sell speakers at the moment. There was not enough market for both companies, since they were making similar products. I guess it is still the same situation.
Audio-Dynamique AD 380 PM 100.
Despite the fact it's a soft suspension like the former Audax HD38, Beyma 15B100 and some JBLs, the moving mass is apparently only about 70g, the Fs is very low and sensitivity is around 97/98dBdB. Looks like a killer to me but given the fact that it's a semi industrial production by a little shop in France (in fact they have 3 branches, one in Paris, one in Lyon and one in Toulouse), it's quite expensive at 770€ which is about 1K$ !!! See MHP (la Maison du Haut-Parleur) : concepteur français de kits d'enceintes pour la HI-FI et le Home Cinéma... (unfortunately, all the information is - as too often in this country - available in French only). They claim that manufactring tolerance is within 5% max.
One of the staff told me that in their shop they achieve 31Hz at -3dB in an enclosure of 85cmx60cmx48cm (external dimensions - the wood is about 32mm thick) which gives a reasonable load volume of far less than 200 liters. He was probably talking about a two-way Kit of their own (with a TAD on top - EDIT: it's a JBL compression, not a TAD) called Aeria - see MHP (la Maison du Haut-Parleur) : concepteur français de kits d'enceintes pour la HI-FI et le Home Cinéma...
Chris.
Despite the fact it's a soft suspension like the former Audax HD38, Beyma 15B100 and some JBLs, the moving mass is apparently only about 70g, the Fs is very low and sensitivity is around 97/98dBdB. Looks like a killer to me but given the fact that it's a semi industrial production by a little shop in France (in fact they have 3 branches, one in Paris, one in Lyon and one in Toulouse), it's quite expensive at 770€ which is about 1K$ !!! See MHP (la Maison du Haut-Parleur) : concepteur français de kits d'enceintes pour la HI-FI et le Home Cinéma... (unfortunately, all the information is - as too often in this country - available in French only). They claim that manufactring tolerance is within 5% max.
One of the staff told me that in their shop they achieve 31Hz at -3dB in an enclosure of 85cmx60cmx48cm (external dimensions - the wood is about 32mm thick) which gives a reasonable load volume of far less than 200 liters. He was probably talking about a two-way Kit of their own (with a TAD on top - EDIT: it's a JBL compression, not a TAD) called Aeria - see MHP (la Maison du Haut-Parleur) : concepteur français de kits d'enceintes pour la HI-FI et le Home Cinéma...
Chris.
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DeltaPro15A moves 61g, I'm surprised nobody has mentioned it?
Similar spec 61g for Celestion BN15-300S neodymium...
Celestion - Bass Guitar Loudspeakers
Even lighter cones, but open baffle Qts too high for Karlson
Legend 1518 = 55g, Big Ben = 47g
Similar spec 61g for Celestion BN15-300S neodymium...
Celestion - Bass Guitar Loudspeakers
Even lighter cones, but open baffle Qts too high for Karlson
Legend 1518 = 55g, Big Ben = 47g
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I've a pair of 1990's Delta style Eminence with lower qts and they worked pretty well in K15->X15 - here's a Ciare neo.
B&C have interesting spec in 15PE40 but it doesn't seem to be sold in US
15.64NDW1 - US$158 at Assistance Audio
The 388 mm wide and 170 mm deep woofer with neodymium magnet for a section of 354 mm is suitable for the frequency 35-3500 Hz
* Belastbarkeit: (AES) = 300 W Load: (AES) = 300 W
* Impedanz: 8 Ohm Impedance: 8 Ohms
* Resonanzfrequenz fs = 37,02 Hz Resonance frequency fs = 37.02 Hz
* Schwingspulendurchmesser: 64 mm Voice coil diameter: 64 mm
* Gleichstromwiderstand Re = 5,45 Ohm DC resistance Re = 5.45 ohms
* Induktivität der Schwingspule: 1,1 mH Inductance of the voice coil 1.1 mH
* Kennschalldruck SPL = 100 dB (1W; 1m) Sound pressure level SPL = 100 dB (1W, 1m)
* Äquivalenzvolumen Vas = 250 Liter Equivalent volume of compliance Vas = 250 liters
* Freiluftgesamtgüte Qts = 0,26 Q factor Qts = 0.26
* Güten im Detail: Qes= 0,26 / Qms = 12,09 Grades in the details: = 0.26 Qes / Qms = 12.09
* effektive Membranfläche: 855 cm2 effective membrane area: 855 cm2
* lineare Auslenkung Xmax: 4 mm linear excursion Xmax: 4 mm
* Bl: 19,19 Bl: 19.19
* Gewicht: 4,1 kg Weight: 4.1 kg
B&C have interesting spec in 15PE40 but it doesn't seem to be sold in US
15.64NDW1 - US$158 at Assistance Audio
An externally hosted image should be here but it was not working when we last tested it.
The 388 mm wide and 170 mm deep woofer with neodymium magnet for a section of 354 mm is suitable for the frequency 35-3500 Hz
* Belastbarkeit: (AES) = 300 W Load: (AES) = 300 W
* Impedanz: 8 Ohm Impedance: 8 Ohms
* Resonanzfrequenz fs = 37,02 Hz Resonance frequency fs = 37.02 Hz
* Schwingspulendurchmesser: 64 mm Voice coil diameter: 64 mm
* Gleichstromwiderstand Re = 5,45 Ohm DC resistance Re = 5.45 ohms
* Induktivität der Schwingspule: 1,1 mH Inductance of the voice coil 1.1 mH
* Kennschalldruck SPL = 100 dB (1W; 1m) Sound pressure level SPL = 100 dB (1W, 1m)
* Äquivalenzvolumen Vas = 250 Liter Equivalent volume of compliance Vas = 250 liters
* Freiluftgesamtgüte Qts = 0,26 Q factor Qts = 0.26
* Güten im Detail: Qes= 0,26 / Qms = 12,09 Grades in the details: = 0.26 Qes / Qms = 12.09
* effektive Membranfläche: 855 cm2 effective membrane area: 855 cm2
* lineare Auslenkung Xmax: 4 mm linear excursion Xmax: 4 mm
* Bl: 19,19 Bl: 19.19
* Gewicht: 4,1 kg Weight: 4.1 kg
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The last couple pages of this thread got around to 18's and the original topic is all the same thing far as an argument that I've figured I would eventually make on this site.
Why is it that 18" drivers still baffle audio enthusiasts? Some complain that the bass sounds "dumb". Well, yes, it's true, the bass from an 18 sounds dumb, because at 18 inches you've finally come to a size that is really only useful for sub frequencies in hifi applications. I'd figure this to be well understood by now.
The manufacturers are starting to figure this out too. That's why the cone mass of popular 18" drivers keeps going up, because it doesn't so much matter how they sound above 60-80 Hz. You'd be better off doing that with a 15 at most anyway.
This is an 18" driver for sub bass:
TC Sounds LMS Ultra 5400 18" DVC Subwoofer | Parts-Express.com
You aren't going to make excellent transient response and minimum group delay happen with higher Q or Fs. You're pretty much forced into running sealed/open system Q's below .5 if you want speed and therefore you need monster speakers, giant baffles/cabs, and many thousands of watts of power to push all that overdamped mass. Trying to get rid of the mass or lightening up on the damping will save you tons of power but fidelity goes out the window. The reason 18s sound funny is still that most people are not willing to afford driving a large electronically equalized Qts=.3 direct radiator with a 15Hz Fs, and that's it.
Trying to make an 18 light is a complete waste of time. If you build an 18 with a 35Hz resonant frequency and a thin cone and make it run as a woofer, what would you expect to hear? I'd expect a lot of flopping around and ringing.
18" is not a woofer size for high fidelity. It's a sub. Any 15" woofer that has nice low mids is going to make a crappy subwoofer. There is no way to get a 15 to do what an 18 and a 12 can do.
Why is it that 18" drivers still baffle audio enthusiasts? Some complain that the bass sounds "dumb". Well, yes, it's true, the bass from an 18 sounds dumb, because at 18 inches you've finally come to a size that is really only useful for sub frequencies in hifi applications. I'd figure this to be well understood by now.
The manufacturers are starting to figure this out too. That's why the cone mass of popular 18" drivers keeps going up, because it doesn't so much matter how they sound above 60-80 Hz. You'd be better off doing that with a 15 at most anyway.
This is an 18" driver for sub bass:
TC Sounds LMS Ultra 5400 18" DVC Subwoofer | Parts-Express.com
You aren't going to make excellent transient response and minimum group delay happen with higher Q or Fs. You're pretty much forced into running sealed/open system Q's below .5 if you want speed and therefore you need monster speakers, giant baffles/cabs, and many thousands of watts of power to push all that overdamped mass. Trying to get rid of the mass or lightening up on the damping will save you tons of power but fidelity goes out the window. The reason 18s sound funny is still that most people are not willing to afford driving a large electronically equalized Qts=.3 direct radiator with a 15Hz Fs, and that's it.
Trying to make an 18 light is a complete waste of time. If you build an 18 with a 35Hz resonant frequency and a thin cone and make it run as a woofer, what would you expect to hear? I'd expect a lot of flopping around and ringing.
18" is not a woofer size for high fidelity. It's a sub. Any 15" woofer that has nice low mids is going to make a crappy subwoofer. There is no way to get a 15 to do what an 18 and a 12 can do.
I'm not impressed by 15's in the 130-140g class with low Vas
An externally hosted image should be here but it was not working when we last tested it.
I forgot about Peavey's 1508-8 HE ~53g mms, Le 0.34mH
Peavey 1508-8 HE BWX 15" 8 Ohm Low Frequency Speaker Driver
Specifications
* 15"
* Impedance: 8 Ohms
* Power capacity: 2000 W Peak 1000 W Program 500 W Continuous
* Sensitivity: 100.3 dB / 1 W 1 m
* Usable freq. range: 40 Hz ~ 2 kHz
* Cone: Kevlar® impregnated cellulose
* Voice coil diameter: 4.0" / 100 mm
* Voice coil material: Aluminum ribbon wire Polyimide-impregnated fiberglass former Nomex® stiffener Solderless diffusion welded OFHC copper leads
* Net weight lb. / kg: 17 lbs. / 7.7 kg
* Znom (ohms) 8
* Revc (ohms) 5.32
* Sd (Square Meters) 0.084
* BL (T/M) 16.04
* Fo (Hz) 51.2
* Vas (liters) 182.4
* Cms (uM/N) 182.0
* Mms (gm) 52.9
* Qms 10.604
* Qes 0.352
* Qts 0.341 Xmax (mm) 1.9
* Le (mH) 0.34
* SPL (1W 1m) 100.3
* No (%) 6.70%
* Vd (cu. in. / ml) 19.5 / 319
* Pmax (Watts pgm.) 1000
* Disp (cu. in. / ml) 197/ 3229
Peavey 1508-8 HE BWX 15" 8 Ohm Low Frequency Speaker Driver
Specifications
* 15"
* Impedance: 8 Ohms
* Power capacity: 2000 W Peak 1000 W Program 500 W Continuous
* Sensitivity: 100.3 dB / 1 W 1 m
* Usable freq. range: 40 Hz ~ 2 kHz
* Cone: Kevlar® impregnated cellulose
* Voice coil diameter: 4.0" / 100 mm
* Voice coil material: Aluminum ribbon wire Polyimide-impregnated fiberglass former Nomex® stiffener Solderless diffusion welded OFHC copper leads
* Net weight lb. / kg: 17 lbs. / 7.7 kg
* Znom (ohms) 8
* Revc (ohms) 5.32
* Sd (Square Meters) 0.084
* BL (T/M) 16.04
* Fo (Hz) 51.2
* Vas (liters) 182.4
* Cms (uM/N) 182.0
* Mms (gm) 52.9
* Qms 10.604
* Qes 0.352
* Qts 0.341 Xmax (mm) 1.9
* Le (mH) 0.34
* SPL (1W 1m) 100.3
* No (%) 6.70%
* Vd (cu. in. / ml) 19.5 / 319
* Pmax (Watts pgm.) 1000
* Disp (cu. in. / ml) 197/ 3229
That LMS just arrived at my door today
So Aaron what cuft sealed config should I go with? I have an EP2500 not used but I was considering some higher powered Marathon amps. Is 2000W enough, I also have a DCX for the LT circuit stuff.
Well Freddi, I'm not too good with these parameters but I did run one of the glorious speakers of yesteryear in a Karlson 15: Stephens Trusonic, 150W, serial number 1841, 1967.
Mcoil = 2.7 gr (yes, has that decimal on the spec sheet, might be an error since it is a 3 inch coil with 52 feet of wire)
Mrest = 28 gr
Sooo, could it be a weight of 31 grams or 55 grams?
Now this nice 20 Hz driver listed for $99 in 1967. Anybody know what that would inflate to today?
This Stephens Trusonic will soon have a nice new sealed enclosure. Glad if somebody will help me off-list getting the old spec sheet into contemporary language. Unless I decide to cannibalize my AR-1W and use the 12 inch, 12 Hz driver (that's no error... cone must weigh 200 grams).
BTW, if you want slap and tightness, check out motional feedback. THAT's the way to get it in a woofer.
how about motional feedback with old-school modest mass in Karlson? whats a turnkey MF woofer / amp other than Rythmik? One Karlson builder has built isobarik klams with slot loaded passive radiator instead of a vent and one little 10" driver klam underpinned 8-10" Scan-speak in aperiodic enclosures. K15 is tuned too high to do much low bass duty. Exemplar tunes them low and applies boost - that's good for ~20Hz - 416 sounded very good to me that way
An externally hosted image should be here but it was not working when we last tested it.
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Funny thing, I used the Bell Labs anechoic chamber, world's largest, to test impulses into that Stephens in the K15. This is a wholly confused set-up for motional feedback, but the results were very striking - maybe extra striking due to the Karlson.
Instead of a kind of cluck, you get a kind of click with motional feedback in that set-up. Very obvious in the Polaroid scope shots we took in those old days where the scope triggered the sweep and the camera.
With motional feedback, the cone is ALIVE like Frankenstein. You push on the cone and something or someone is pushing back. Creepy.
Instead of a kind of cluck, you get a kind of click with motional feedback in that set-up. Very obvious in the Polaroid scope shots we took in those old days where the scope triggered the sweep and the camera.
With motional feedback, the cone is ALIVE like Frankenstein. You push on the cone and something or someone is pushing back. Creepy.
About $580 in US currency. In Canadian dollars, I don't know. A pricey driver.
Hi there,
I found this:
http://www.pas-toc.com/pdf/drivers/ER-1580C-DATA.pdf
Mms= 68g (hmm... not the lightest)
BL= 21.8 TM (@ Re=5.8 Ohm, so it's pretty good)
Le= 0.9mH (not excellent but decent)
Qts= 0.15 ( damn! or DAMPED! )
Xmax= 2.3 mm ( not for low and loud at the same time )
Maybe similar to the aforementioned Peavy 1508HE.
PAS is rarely mentioned. I can only remember its big coaxial brought up by (now banned) Magnetar... Has anyone else heard of it?
I found this:
http://www.pas-toc.com/pdf/drivers/ER-1580C-DATA.pdf
Mms= 68g (hmm... not the lightest)
BL= 21.8 TM (@ Re=5.8 Ohm, so it's pretty good)
Le= 0.9mH (not excellent but decent)
Qts= 0.15 ( damn! or DAMPED! )
Xmax= 2.3 mm ( not for low and loud at the same time )
Maybe similar to the aforementioned Peavy 1508HE.
PAS is rarely mentioned. I can only remember its big coaxial brought up by (now banned) Magnetar... Has anyone else heard of it?
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