I am intrigued by the econowave tweeter (selenium compression driver plus inexpensive jbl horn) and always thought a large two way would be simple fun and have a great, dynamic sound. I was wondering if anyone has matched the econowave tweeter to good effect with a woofer? In my mind i've thought about mating it with an Eminence Lil Buddy on an open baffle and filling in the bottom with H-frames or another type of woofer compliment... or just a 12 or 15 inch efficient woofer that is not too expensive... under $100 each for example... the cheaper the better, in a simple box. Has anyone successfully used the econowave tweeter?
TIA,
Godzilla
TIA,
Godzilla
Obviously a whole host of people have integrated this with the JBL woofer. Similar (and cheaper woofers) such as came in some of the cerwin vega gear of the same vintage would probably work too (thank Ron E for that tip).
The JA 8008 would make a pretty interesting combo. WAY outside the pricerange. You might want to take a look for the woofer that this was based on. I know for a fact that there are some out there. For $80 + $20 for the surround you can have something eerily similar.
The JA 8008 would make a pretty interesting combo. WAY outside the pricerange. You might want to take a look for the woofer that this was based on. I know for a fact that there are some out there. For $80 + $20 for the surround you can have something eerily similar.
I'm watching one member who is planning on using 2 dayton 10 inch woofers. With 2 woofers, sensitivity will be up some, they make decent bass and are only 30 bucks or less apiece.
Otherwise, at a slightly higher price, I would try JBL 2235H, sort of a modern, MUCH simplified 4430. The 4430 crossover and sysytem while 2 way, is anything but simple. Easy to clone, but boy did JBL put the engineers to work on this fine monitor.
Also had great results with JBL 2225H in the same box. ( JBL 4507/4647.) Other members have used 2226H successfully as well.
The older advents seem to be a real popular woofer box to use, many have used this inexpensive woofer/box combo.
Russellc
Otherwise, at a slightly higher price, I would try JBL 2235H, sort of a modern, MUCH simplified 4430. The 4430 crossover and sysytem while 2 way, is anything but simple. Easy to clone, but boy did JBL put the engineers to work on this fine monitor.
Also had great results with JBL 2225H in the same box. ( JBL 4507/4647.) Other members have used 2226H successfully as well.
The older advents seem to be a real popular woofer box to use, many have used this inexpensive woofer/box combo.
Russellc
Godzilla said:
Zilch and I discussed this some time back (but don't know where). To get both a matching directivity/power response and keep the crossover above the horn's mouth resonance will require a LOT of work. The ONLY way that JBL managed to do it was NOT with 10", 12", or 15" inch drivers - but rather with a smaller mid-range coupled to its own horn. Good news is that it's about as cheap as the other horn AND it uses an inexpensive eminence driver. bad news is that it's a "closed-back" driver AND it's now a 3-way requiring steep filters at both points.
Alternative:
The RCF H100 horn can get you much lower in freq. which allows you to crossover to a 15" driver. (the "econowave" is best crossed above 2.5 kHz, the RCF H100 however spec.s to 800 which generally translates into 1200 Hz - depending on pattern control.)
Objective:
http://pagesperso-orange.fr/francis.audio2/Comparaison_1pouce.pdf
Subjective:
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/showthread.php?postid=1837409#post1837409
Moderate cost Suggestion:
RCF H100 with B&C DE12 (mylar)
Selenium 15PW3-SLF (in a large volume aperiodic enclosure)
Tricky part will be the cross-over.
Much of our early work was done with LE14A woofers, and there's a simple lowpass mod documented for that particular one. Upgrade path is LE14H-3, if you can get them. The venerable 123A(-x)/2213(H) was also an early favorite, which works well closed-box.
Others have used the 15" drivers Russell cites, though the directivity match is not optimum. No matter, they rock, as desired. Large Advents have been popular because they are plentiful, typically available for $20 or less a pair locally everywhere, and the waveguide fits the baffle.
The EconoWave crossover is designed with high-frequency compensation specific to the Selenium D220Ti using a minimalist implementation of Wayne Parham's Pi-Speakers topology, the electrical highpass occurring up around 3 kHz, but the acoustic crossover frequency is ~1.6 kHz, depending on which woofer is used. 12" and 10" drivers are a good choice, and there are plenty of them from among which to choose.
The simple 2-pole lowpass filter we provide as a generic starting point should be optimized by the builder for the chosen woofer. Few have actually done that, but achieve pleasing results without this refinement; over 50 systems have been "officially" completed to date.
A PC board (from the Zilchster) is available to facilitate crossover construction as shown in the YouTube video:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lw7pTwpx0K0
Godzilla's attitude regarding EconoWave is consistent with what we intended for the design -- it's cheap, it's fun, it's easy, and it''s a surprisingly listenable entry-level introduction to modern constant-directivity waveguide design principles and performance. Just do it.
http://www.audiokarma.org/forums/showthread.php?t=150939
Others have used the 15" drivers Russell cites, though the directivity match is not optimum. No matter, they rock, as desired. Large Advents have been popular because they are plentiful, typically available for $20 or less a pair locally everywhere, and the waveguide fits the baffle.
The EconoWave crossover is designed with high-frequency compensation specific to the Selenium D220Ti using a minimalist implementation of Wayne Parham's Pi-Speakers topology, the electrical highpass occurring up around 3 kHz, but the acoustic crossover frequency is ~1.6 kHz, depending on which woofer is used. 12" and 10" drivers are a good choice, and there are plenty of them from among which to choose.
The simple 2-pole lowpass filter we provide as a generic starting point should be optimized by the builder for the chosen woofer. Few have actually done that, but achieve pleasing results without this refinement; over 50 systems have been "officially" completed to date.
A PC board (from the Zilchster) is available to facilitate crossover construction as shown in the YouTube video:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lw7pTwpx0K0
Godzilla's attitude regarding EconoWave is consistent with what we intended for the design -- it's cheap, it's fun, it's easy, and it''s a surprisingly listenable entry-level introduction to modern constant-directivity waveguide design principles and performance. Just do it.
http://www.audiokarma.org/forums/showthread.php?t=150939
Zilch
How about using an Eminence Beta-10CX as a plain old woofer in a ported box (w/ center plug sealed) with a normal EconoWave top end? w/ Little to no xover mods.
It's got a 2" VC reasonable eff ~95 dB/2.8 V and decent low end extension for a $69.99 10" woofer. http://www.usspeaker.com/BETA10CX-1.htm
You have looked at this idea recently I think or suggest anything better at this price that looks good to you?
How about using an Eminence Beta-10CX as a plain old woofer in a ported box (w/ center plug sealed) with a normal EconoWave top end? w/ Little to no xover mods.
It's got a 2" VC reasonable eff ~95 dB/2.8 V and decent low end extension for a $69.99 10" woofer. http://www.usspeaker.com/BETA10CX-1.htm
You have looked at this idea recently I think
or suggest anything better at this price that looks good to you?
>>> No matter, they rock, as desired.
That's what i thought. I am still considering the waveguide plus the lil buddy on an open baffle... but would move the crossover up to 3.5k... unless there is good sonic reasons for keeping the crossover lower?? I am also considering an eminence 10 or 12" in a simple ported box. I would be going for a big, dynamic sound.
Cool vid! Thanks for sharing!
Godzilla
That's what i thought. I am still considering the waveguide plus the lil buddy on an open baffle... but would move the crossover up to 3.5k... unless there is good sonic reasons for keeping the crossover lower?? I am also considering an eminence 10 or 12" in a simple ported box. I would be going for a big, dynamic sound.
Cool vid! Thanks for sharing!
Godzilla
infinia said:
We looked at that option today to consider for next year. Clearly, an external waveguide would be better than using it coax.
We didn't pay much attention to its performance as a woofer, but from the suggested apps, it looks like it wants 3 cuft to play low, and may require boundary reinforcement for that to work well. If you have them, they can be made to work, looks like, but starting from scratch, I'd be looking at other options.
I'm afraid my experience with Eminence drivers is extremely limited....
econo econowave?
Hi,
I am just about to embark on a simple 2 way design based on the econowave ideas using a 12" high efficiency PA type woofer, the Pioneer A30GC50-52F-Q-1
This is my first ever speaker build.. getting lots of help and advice from Col on how to approach it. Thanks Col!
I'l be using the Pyle PH612, but one current diversion from the standard econowave script is I'm trying the Pyle PDS221 compression drivers rather than the Selenium ones. I suppose since the Zilch econowave crossover is crafted for the Selenium drivers response I'll have to do a fair bit of measurement to get suitable crossovers happening... but still waiting for that bit of gear to be delivered.
Right now gathering information and waiting for the rest of the gear to arrive - though I have the woofers so at least can start scoping out cabinet sizes from the parameters served up from woofertester.
Cabinet will be a simple bass reflex MDF design, and the result is to be be an upgrade to my Alesis Monitor One (mk I) speakers.
I'll post more updates in a separate thread once things get further underway.
Hi,
I am just about to embark on a simple 2 way design based on the econowave ideas using a 12" high efficiency PA type woofer, the Pioneer A30GC50-52F-Q-1
This is my first ever speaker build.. getting lots of help and advice from Col on how to approach it. Thanks Col!
I'l be using the Pyle PH612, but one current diversion from the standard econowave script is I'm trying the Pyle PDS221 compression drivers rather than the Selenium ones. I suppose since the Zilch econowave crossover is crafted for the Selenium drivers response I'll have to do a fair bit of measurement to get suitable crossovers happening... but still waiting for that bit of gear to be delivered.
Right now gathering information and waiting for the rest of the gear to arrive - though I have the woofers so at least can start scoping out cabinet sizes from the parameters served up from woofertester.
Cabinet will be a simple bass reflex MDF design, and the result is to be be an upgrade to my Alesis Monitor One (mk I) speakers.
I'll post more updates in a separate thread once things get further underway.
Re: Re: Econowave tweeter + which woofer?
Which is why I suggested using a high efficiency 8" driver with a low fs and almost no break up. Reading Troels stuff leading up to the development of the ja8008 would be a good start. If I wasn't up to my neck in other projects this is something I'd be doing.
ScottG said:
Which is why I suggested using a high efficiency 8" driver with a low fs and almost no break up. Reading Troels stuff leading up to the development of the ja8008 would be a good start. If I wasn't up to my neck in other projects this is something I'd be doing.
ScottG said:
http://www.rcf.it/c/document_library/get_file?p_l_id=251816&folderId=22488&name=DLFE-2191.pdf
I believe Scott is arguing in favor of a more axi-symmetric horn/waveguide. There are plenty of those available, but Wayne Parham makes a good case for asymmetrics such as EconoWave in the Horn vs. Waveguide thread.
I don't see the relevance of either of the links....
Re: Re: Re: Econowave tweeter + which woofer?
That's another way to go, but far more expensive and usually less eff.. It results in broader dispersion.
The mid-range waveguide is a bit different.
The RCF horn solution could perhaps be considered a hybrid solution between the two (..more constant coverage but increased directivity when compared to the 8" driver plus small waveguide). Like Earl's larger designs, it has a loss in output off-axis down to the baffle step region. Basically you can listen off-axis (35 degrees) with a suppressed level of about - 4 db relative to the baffle step region, which (depending on the baffle) can basically compensate for baffle step loss (..that occurs beyond a meter in distance). It also gives you increased spl off-axis of your choice depending on toe-in or toe-out at higher freq.s. Toe-out increase soundstage effects. Toe-in increases multi-axis image "lock" (horizontally). Note that the 8" driver solution does not have any of these features.
d to the g said:
That's another way to go, but far more expensive and usually less eff.. It results in broader dispersion.
The mid-range waveguide is a bit different.
The RCF horn solution could perhaps be considered a hybrid solution between the two (..more constant coverage but increased directivity when compared to the 8" driver plus small waveguide). Like Earl's larger designs, it has a loss in output off-axis down to the baffle step region. Basically you can listen off-axis (35 degrees) with a suppressed level of about - 4 db relative to the baffle step region, which (depending on the baffle) can basically compensate for baffle step loss (..that occurs beyond a meter in distance). It also gives you increased spl off-axis of your choice depending on toe-in or toe-out at higher freq.s. Toe-out increase soundstage effects. Toe-in increases multi-axis image "lock" (horizontally). Note that the 8" driver solution does not have any of these features.
ZilchLab said:
The RCF horn was an alternative (as stated). NOT specifically a like-kind alternative.
The relevance was:
1. The horn was subjectively compared to the JBL waveguide (and driver), and it was preferred.
2. It overcomes the problems associated with "ctc" driver spacing at the crossover, the ripple induced by the mouth exit (at higher freq.s), and does it all with 2 drivers (..which might be considered more "simplistic").
The french article was their to show that indeed, the horn does have increased extension and much less ripple (again, allowing it be crossed-over much lower without significant detrimental effects).
Re: Re: Econowave tweeter + which woofer?
As to the 15 inch driver, while not "optimum" JBL did fairly well ( I believe the longest production monitor of theirs) with the 4430, not to mention 4425, and the 4435 as well.
Sitting here with the 2235H and econowaveguide ( DE 250 substituted for the 220 ti right now) there is very little one could want for.
I have the 2213H that Zilch spoke of, I'll use it next, but I'm not expecting performance beyond what the 2235H is giving.
Russellc
ScottG said:
Zilch and I discussed this some time back (but don't know where). To get both a matching directivity/power response and keep the crossover above the horn's mouth resonance will require a LOT of work. The ONLY way that JBL managed to do it was NOT with 10", 12", or 15" inch drivers - but rather with a smaller mid-range coupled to its own horn. Good news is that it's about as cheap as the other horn AND it uses an inexpensive eminence driver. bad news is that it's a "closed-back" driver AND it's now a 3-way requiring steep filters at both points.
Alternative:
The RCF H100 horn can get you much lower in freq. which allows you to crossover to a 15" driver. (the "econowave" is best crossed above 2.5 kHz, the RCF H100 however spec.s to 800 which generally translates into 1200 Hz - depending on pattern control.)
Objective:
http://pagesperso-orange.fr/francis.audio2/Comparaison_1pouce.pdf
Subjective:
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/showthread.php?postid=1837409#post1837409
Moderate cost Suggestion:
RCF H100 with B&C DE12 (mylar)
Selenium 15PW3-SLF (in a large volume aperiodic enclosure)
Tricky part will be the cross-over.
As to the 15 inch driver, while not "optimum" JBL did fairly well ( I believe the longest production monitor of theirs) with the 4430, not to mention 4425, and the 4435 as well.
Sitting here with the 2235H and econowaveguide ( DE 250 substituted for the 220 ti right now) there is very little one could want for.
I have the 2213H that Zilch spoke of, I'll use it next, but I'm not expecting performance beyond what the 2235H is giving.
Russellc
Re: Re: Re: Econowave tweeter + which woofer?
I don't remember which JBL articles I looked at, but off-axis the response "dipped" considerably in the 1-2.5 kHz region. Linear decay was also notably absent.
This isn't to say that a 2-way design can't sound good - but rather that the design will likely have *significant* compromises - especially if you are looking for certain character traits in the design. For some, this could be more compromises than they are willing to accept. (..and in fact with the way Zilch was trying to maintain pattern control with low diffraction as Earl had - it would seem that it would be insufficient for Zilch as well.)
Russellc said:
I don't remember which JBL articles I looked at, but off-axis the response "dipped" considerably in the 1-2.5 kHz region. Linear decay was also notably absent.
This isn't to say that a 2-way design can't sound good - but rather that the design will likely have *significant* compromises - especially if you are looking for certain character traits in the design. For some, this could be more compromises than they are willing to accept. (..and in fact with the way Zilch was trying to maintain pattern control with low diffraction as Earl had - it would seem that it would be insufficient for Zilch as well.)
ScottG said:
1) He also stated that it did not require HF compensation. His measurement is below. It needs at least 6 dB of HF comp.
2) Despite being too small to match directivity with a large woofer, the CTC spacing will still place the vertical nulls within the pattern of a smaller one.
3) I see no reference to the RCF H100 in the french article.
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