Great stuff how big is your enclosure?
It was also notable that just keeping the company (Rogers) afloat was a problem. The local rates bill saw them into receivership at one time. Taxes and rent is what kills a lot of little companies.
An externally hosted image should be here but it was not working when we last tested it.
My WLM La Scala's are progressing in the modelling stage, but it's looking more and more like an AR-4x style first order crossover to me, and the little black thing must be a poly switch fuse:
An externally hosted image should be here but it was not working when we last tested it.
The 0.17mH tweeter is a bit of a beast to get flat, and the awkward 2.2mH woofer doesn't like second order at all! Any tips appreciated here.
An externally hosted image should be here but it was not working when we last tested it.
Visaton give away a nice simulator called BoxSim with all the driver files, so having lots of fun simming it. I think I could be the new sreten!
Visaton - Lautsprecher und Zubehör, Loudspeakers and Accessories
Actually, burgunder, the 4 ohm seems to have a suckout between 1500 and 3000 Hz, but it was worth considering for my new WLM-type party boxes. Thanks.
I have met a couple of people who have seen UFO's up in the sky (And, yes, the police really do confiscate the cameras.), and who I believed to be sane. I'd ask "How big was it? How far away?" They were both lost for words. "Like the size of a double-decker bus?" Still lost for words.
Lost for words. Why? This brings me on to the KOSS ESP-9 Electrostatic Headphone, which claimed to be the most accurate sound in the world:
These had silicone filled earpads which created a strange dead quiet where you were conscious of your own breathing and swallowing, and a faultlessly smooth reproduction. I sold mine, because, like the legendary Quad Electrostatic speakers, I never quite liked what they did. Why? Well I'm a bit lost for words.
Enter the strange and remarkable near fullrange MANGER Zerobox 103. These are not cheap at all, and are strictly for people who don't care about the price tag. FWIW, the two Vifa woofers only work below 160Hz.
I have listened to lots of things on CD on these in a biggish room, and very carefully to Kate Bush/The Sensual World in an anechoically dead home cinema room. The matching electronics were really as highend as it gets. They are quite bewildering. Nothing to fault, but leave you uncomfortable and uninvolved. It was not possible to hear something like those lovely old recordings of Duke Ellington or Frank Sinatra on vinyl, but I would have liked to do that with these speakers.
6moons audio reviews: Overkill Audio Encore Speaker System
What they have in spades is a fantastic transient response, like the Koss and Quads, which equates to no time delay. The words I am probably looking for with the three examples, is that all three devices are VERY SPOOKY to listen to. Without an acoustic of time-delayed echoes from the room or the speakers which tell you where you are, you just feel a bit lost. Most odd.
I have met a couple of people who have seen UFO's up in the sky (And, yes, the police really do confiscate the cameras.), and who I believed to be sane. I'd ask "How big was it? How far away?" They were both lost for words. "Like the size of a double-decker bus?" Still lost for words.
Lost for words. Why? This brings me on to the KOSS ESP-9 Electrostatic Headphone, which claimed to be the most accurate sound in the world:
An externally hosted image should be here but it was not working when we last tested it.
These had silicone filled earpads which created a strange dead quiet where you were conscious of your own breathing and swallowing, and a faultlessly smooth reproduction. I sold mine, because, like the legendary Quad Electrostatic speakers, I never quite liked what they did. Why? Well I'm a bit lost for words.
Enter the strange and remarkable near fullrange MANGER Zerobox 103. These are not cheap at all, and are strictly for people who don't care about the price tag. FWIW, the two Vifa woofers only work below 160Hz.
An externally hosted image should be here but it was not working when we last tested it.
I have listened to lots of things on CD on these in a biggish room, and very carefully to Kate Bush/The Sensual World in an anechoically dead home cinema room. The matching electronics were really as highend as it gets. They are quite bewildering. Nothing to fault, but leave you uncomfortable and uninvolved. It was not possible to hear something like those lovely old recordings of Duke Ellington or Frank Sinatra on vinyl, but I would have liked to do that with these speakers.
6moons audio reviews: Overkill Audio Encore Speaker System
What they have in spades is a fantastic transient response, like the Koss and Quads, which equates to no time delay. The words I am probably looking for with the three examples, is that all three devices are VERY SPOOKY to listen to. Without an acoustic of time-delayed echoes from the room or the speakers which tell you where you are, you just feel a bit lost. Most odd.
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There's half a dozen circuits that play nicely with these two drivers, mostly around 3kHz crossover. In practise I found the Visaton W200S-8 ohm is bassier than it looks and you'd probably do better with a 1mH coil.
But I found out that the W200S-4 ohm is an interesting driver too. It hardly needs any bafflestep and works rather well with a series filter. I haven't tried it though.
But I found out that the W200S-4 ohm is an interesting driver too. It hardly needs any bafflestep and works rather well with a series filter. I haven't tried it though.
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I agree, the Monacor HT22 is a good little cone tweeter. They often used a metal centre in the old classic Peerless cone tweeters. I use it interchangeably with the TW70.
As for what is in the WLM La Scala, I wouldn't really attempt to guess, except it's simple. Maybe they have crossed it at 1200Hz, but that never sounded good to me. I do have a strong feeling they are using the W200S-4 ohm though. And my series filter works amazingly well with it on paper.
I have pretty much finalised the parallel options with the similar 8 ohm bass, below. LR4 on the left. Then BW3 and LR2 which are so similar, you might try either or both. I must do some more work on this speaker. I think it's a good one. You won't go far wrong. The RC notch across the bass coil seems to help too on listening tests.
As for what is in the WLM La Scala, I wouldn't really attempt to guess, except it's simple. Maybe they have crossed it at 1200Hz, but that never sounded good to me. I do have a strong feeling they are using the W200S-4 ohm though. And my series filter works amazingly well with it on paper.
I have pretty much finalised the parallel options with the similar 8 ohm bass, below. LR4 on the left. Then BW3 and LR2 which are so similar, you might try either or both. I must do some more work on this speaker. I think it's a good one. You won't go far wrong. The RC notch across the bass coil seems to help too on listening tests.
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This has always been my favourite diyaudio thread. If you go back near the start, you will find the late Lars Dyreborg (aka tinitus) building a lovely three way. But looking at the old designs that worked well is what it's also about.
Let's look at the classic big two way 8" paper bass speaker. The Audio Note AN-E based on Peter Snell's work. It is available in kit form and ready made with various grades of foam surround hemp coned 4 ohm SEAS drivers.
ANK Audiokits - Audio Note Speaker Kits
The drivers are pretty special, though my WLM La Scala project has been a bit of a poor man's homage. Not a lot of bass, the speaker is designed to go in a corner, but efficient and easy impedance.
The filter is simple enough, though the J version uses a little bit of RCL notch filtering to take down the midrange 2dB around 500Hz.
It's a LR2 design at heart. Troels Gravesen has certainly been hugely influenced by it and the SEAS CA21REX modified:
High Efficiency Speakers
The tweeter filter is here 1kHz notched first order operating around 2.5kHz. This ends up as a straight 12dB slope. This is very demanding on the tweeter, but evidently doable with a quality tweeter driver that can handle some bass excursion. Joe Rasmussen uses this filter in his Elsinore design.
The pictures speak for themselves. My own sim shows roughly how the LR2 works, and you can also do this steeper BW3, which plays nicely in negative polarity.
Let's look at the classic big two way 8" paper bass speaker. The Audio Note AN-E based on Peter Snell's work. It is available in kit form and ready made with various grades of foam surround hemp coned 4 ohm SEAS drivers.
ANK Audiokits - Audio Note Speaker Kits
The drivers are pretty special, though my WLM La Scala project has been a bit of a poor man's homage. Not a lot of bass, the speaker is designed to go in a corner, but efficient and easy impedance.
The filter is simple enough, though the J version uses a little bit of RCL notch filtering to take down the midrange 2dB around 500Hz.
It's a LR2 design at heart. Troels Gravesen has certainly been hugely influenced by it and the SEAS CA21REX modified:
High Efficiency Speakers
The tweeter filter is here 1kHz notched first order operating around 2.5kHz. This ends up as a straight 12dB slope. This is very demanding on the tweeter, but evidently doable with a quality tweeter driver that can handle some bass excursion. Joe Rasmussen uses this filter in his Elsinore design.
The pictures speak for themselves. My own sim shows roughly how the LR2 works, and you can also do this steeper BW3, which plays nicely in negative polarity.
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If you want to cross that low, go for Visaton FR5x instead. it will handle the low crossing but for sure not HT or TW…...
What a load of rubbish! You can't simply replace a genuine tweeter with a fullranger. peterbrorsson you are headed close to my ignore list.
In fact there is no such driver as a FR5-X. It's actually the FRS 5 X - 8 Ohm. Problem is that it has no useful power handling at high frequency.
I give you the simulation results below. Now after a USEFUL post like my Audio Note one, and your less than useful one, could you please get back to advancing the curve. We are, after all, PROFFESIONALS.
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If you like a monitor with an 8in woofer and a full range as a tweeter with low XO as in a FAST, take a look at my ScanSpeak 10F/8424 and RS225-8 reference monitor.
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/full-range/273524-10f-8424-rs225-8-fast-ref-monitor.html
This was the final XO I ended up with (shown with and without HPF for woofer):
I ended up with an LR2 XO, but tried LR4 and BW1. The BW1 gave a transient perfect step response but had too much woofer leakage into the HF's.
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/full-range/273524-10f-8424-rs225-8-fast-ref-monitor.html
This was the final XO I ended up with (shown with and without HPF for woofer):
I ended up with an LR2 XO, but tried LR4 and BW1. The BW1 gave a transient perfect step response but had too much woofer leakage into the HF's.
What a load of rubbish! You can't simply replace a genuine tweeter with a fullranger. peterbrorsson you are headed close to my ignore list.
In fact there is no such driver as a FR5-X. It's actually the FRS 5 X - 8 Ohm. Problem is that it has no useful power handling at high frequency.
I give you the simulation results below. Now after a USEFUL post like my Audio Note one, and your less than useful one, could you please get back to advancing the curve. We are, after all, PROFFESIONALS.
Hi Steve,
Be welcome to add me in ignore list
) Wrong product number, bad me!Well, it seems that K+T magazine liked it together with Visaton W300.
I think I trust them more showing actual measurements up to 95db. I can't see any problems there.
But of course, I beg your highness pardon for being such an ignorant peasant
Anyway, I will send a FRS5X to XRK 971, then well see what it brings out. If it's bad, well that's that. If it's good enough then we'll see if it's a "load of rubbish"
I want use cone paper tweeters . yes,6dB xover with tw is not good idea .. ht22 is better for it. hasn t peak at 1,4KHz but low crossover(and 6dB) is dangerous for tweeter .La scala are nice , w200s is cheap , tw70 too and I have pair of ht22...( 1:1 copy of la scala is impossible. wlm use OEM visatons. ) this xover 12/12 looks good .
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waikikibounty, you are cooking with gas there! Looks good to me. I'll lash up something similar and we can compare notes. I want to hear that tweeter second order.
Back on-topic, with classic monitors, though slightly sad the Audio Note AN-E analysis got trashed into the dust. An interesting speaker IMO. Cast ye not pearls... an all that.
Below is peterbrorsson's TerraLuna design. It uses a Visaton FRS 5-X 2" fullrange driver to solve the problem of dispersion with a huge 12" driver by crossing over at 800Hz.
If it all looks too good to be true, well actually it IS! That little fullranger is going to fry at quite modest power levels. Only suitable for people with flea-powered amps.
So a better way is to use a more rugged Scanspeak 10F 4" mid. Troels does 800Hz crossover with an 8" bass in the Discovery speaker, which is a good match. And like xrk971 in his tweeterless FAST.
When you put it all together, you end up with a true modern classic IMO. ScanSpeak-3W-Discovery. What's not to like?
Back on-topic, with classic monitors, though slightly sad the Audio Note AN-E analysis got trashed into the dust. An interesting speaker IMO. Cast ye not pearls... an all that.
Below is peterbrorsson's TerraLuna design. It uses a Visaton FRS 5-X 2" fullrange driver to solve the problem of dispersion with a huge 12" driver by crossing over at 800Hz.
If it all looks too good to be true, well actually it IS! That little fullranger is going to fry at quite modest power levels. Only suitable for people with flea-powered amps.
So a better way is to use a more rugged Scanspeak 10F 4" mid. Troels does 800Hz crossover with an 8" bass in the Discovery speaker, which is a good match. And like xrk971 in his tweeterless FAST.
When you put it all together, you end up with a true modern classic IMO. ScanSpeak-3W-Discovery. What's not to like?
Troels Gravesen said:
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I would love to have a Discovery 3-way as well.
I am thinking I trying a Duelund 3-way with my red monitors by adding a dome tweeter and running tweeter LR2 and woofer LR2 with same polarity for a deep dip at 3kHz Then use 10F as dip filler mid with BW1 band pass at 1.5kHz and 6kHz window for flat phase transient perfect XO.
I am thinking I trying a Duelund 3-way with my red monitors by adding a dome tweeter and running tweeter LR2 and woofer LR2 with same polarity for a deep dip at 3kHz Then use 10F as dip filler mid with BW1 band pass at 1.5kHz and 6kHz window for flat phase transient perfect XO.
Hi system7
Talking about monitors, I have in front of me a mint pair of SystemAudio SA210, have had them for a long time, meaning to improve them a bit. Solid little things. 89dB/W, 2way d'Appolito, BR and 24dB/oct. LR at 3k. Taking them apart now to peek inside. Not room for 8" in them. 12.3 litres displacement in water.
Talking about monitors, I have in front of me a mint pair of SystemAudio SA210, have had them for a long time, meaning to improve them a bit. Solid little things. 89dB/W, 2way d'Appolito, BR and 24dB/oct. LR at 3k. Taking them apart now to peek inside. Not room for 8" in them. 12.3 litres displacement in water.
SystemAudio DK SA210
Ha ! What do you know.
1" dome, shielded magnet made by Vifaaaaaa....and two 4" funnyconematerial, shielded magnet made by guess who. 4 bipolar caps, 2 small coils and 5W resistor. 4 Ohm speakers.
Usual bellwire and clips on leads. Foam damping.
-3dB at 45Hz. Volume I recon 9 litres.
Glad I picked them up cheaply.
Ha ! What do you know.
1" dome, shielded magnet made by Vifaaaaaa....and two 4" funnyconematerial, shielded magnet made by guess who. 4 bipolar caps, 2 small coils and 5W resistor. 4 Ohm speakers.
Usual bellwire and clips on leads. Foam damping.
-3dB at 45Hz. Volume I recon 9 litres.
Glad I picked them up cheaply.
D'Appolito MTM designs follow a bit of a formula too, IMO. The idea is the the basses reinforce each other to add weight to the people at the back of the auditorium.
If you talk about D'Appolito to most folks they mention combing. Combing is overrated, IMO. I like MTM designs. They have a presence.
A centre channel, like the System Audio SA210-AV, often uses reduced low bass for voices. Might be a series 47uf capacitor on the bass section.
Your System Audio SA210 appear to use some variant of the 4" polycone Peerless 830870.
Nevertheless for sound theoretical reasons, I prefer the basses wired in series if in the same common enclosure, along with dual tweeters and Joe D'Appolito's original BW3 filter for flat power response. An MTTM, in other words.
Time will tell if I and Joe are right.
If you talk about D'Appolito to most folks they mention combing. Combing is overrated, IMO. I like MTM designs. They have a presence.
A centre channel, like the System Audio SA210-AV, often uses reduced low bass for voices. Might be a series 47uf capacitor on the bass section.
Your System Audio SA210 appear to use some variant of the 4" polycone Peerless 830870.
Nevertheless for sound theoretical reasons, I prefer the basses wired in series if in the same common enclosure, along with dual tweeters and Joe D'Appolito's original BW3 filter for flat power response. An MTTM, in other words.
Time will tell if I and Joe are right.
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What formula?
Never heard of this before. Cool.
Most folks? Only those who are measurement addicts. Very few of them.
Not really overrated. It's audible and part of the general trade-off.
Dual woofers have lower distortion and higher sensitivity, thus giving "presence" or "impact". The trade off is COMBING and COST. I usually prefer a system that can throw good sound stage.
Nevertheless for sound theoretical reasons, I prefer the basses wired in series if in the same common enclosure, along with dual tweeters and Joe D'Appolito's original BW3 filter for flat power response. An MTTM, in other words.
Time will tell if I and Joe are right.
I forgot what Joe has said?
