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Multi-Way Conventional loudspeakers with crossovers

Classic monitor designs?
Classic monitor designs?
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Old 16th July 2017, 11:21 PM   #401
Ro808 is offline Ro808  Netherlands
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These Celestion Dittons are indeed nice examples of 'Classic 3 Ways'.
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Old 17th July 2017, 12:49 PM   #402
Ro808 is offline Ro808  Netherlands
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Quote:
Originally Posted by system7 View Post

I grew up in the late 1960s and 1970s listening to valve amps driving Goodmans 10" or 12" bass in a huge old box with 3" cone tweeter. I don't think crossovers were taken very seriously in those days. Usually just a 10uF capacitor to protect the tweeter from low frequencies. LOL.

It actually sounded tremendously realistic on occasion.

High frequencies around 15kHz weren't the main event with setups like this. It was mostly about the 300-3kHz midrange, which is what your ear is designed for.

I compared the Visaton modelling for a modern rubber surround, big magnet W200S in a tiny 12L with the very retro cloth surround B200 in 60L. They actually end up in much the same place.

Even on power handling, though you must trust me on this. Anyway, the comparison below. A lot to be said for the small box which works as well as the big one. Wharfedale did this sort of small box back in the seventies with the 20L Wharfedale Denton II with an 8" bass. Possibly the best selling speaker they ever made. FWIW, the cone midrange/tweeter was crossed quite low around 1.5kHz. It was a plastic unit with a built-in chamber around the size of a coffee-cup with some wadding. I quite like the old retro cloth-surround style though. The Sony E44 is so retro, it's laughable. But extremely musical IMO, especially with a good crossover.

I have had my experience with Wharfedale as well and will post some short comments later. Enclosed are 2 images from the Wharfedale archives.
Manufacturing loudspeaker drivers during WWII...

Sony produced some interesting Classic 2 and 3 Ways, especially the SEAS OEM coned versions. You have to rework the XO though, because Sony had the 20 cm cone of this E-44 play all the way up to 6000 Hz. In the 1980's this was common practice among many manufacturers, mainly in order to keep the tweeters operating within their safety zone.
Attached Images
File Type: jpg Wharfedale Factory 1942.jpg (123.6 KB, 230 views)
File Type: jpg Wharfedale 1969 Loudspeakers.jpg (101.4 KB, 228 views)

Last edited by Ro808; 17th July 2017 at 12:54 PM.
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Old 17th July 2017, 07:48 PM   #403
Ro808 is offline Ro808  Netherlands
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Years ago, I got a pair of Wharfedale Melton 2's and Linton 2's.
I Replaced the ancient caps (4 & 6 uf coupled bipolar caps) with a Mungdorf 10uf, as shown in the collage.

I did not measure the things, but the very thick rubber surround had stiffened over the years.

The tweeters of the Wharfedales from this era is a rather particuliar design. It's called a CAB cone which is an abbreviation of Cellulosic Butyrate Acetate.

I treated the surrounds with natural oil in order to weaken the rubber surrounds and hooked them up to a Chevin Research studio amp. While this was way beyond the power specs, it did open up the sound.

These rather big 2 ways had an overall pleasant sound with good imaging, especially with classic chamber, jazz and similar acoustic music.
Eventually, I fried a voicecoil while playing some electronic music. Apparently, the motor was no longer capable to adequately move the cone due to the extremely stiff(ened) suspension.

The Linton 2's had a similar sound quality, only 'scaled down'. All in all, these vintage Wharfedale loudspeakers are not bad, but obviously most modern drivers are much better compared to these Wharfedale units. Celestion, Kef and Goodmans in particular offered similar loudspeakers systems.
The last photos (bad early smartphone lenses) show 1 of my Melton 2's and a Linton 2. The Linton's still had their original white rubbing varnish coating, which was a rather expensive custom order finish.


Info from the vintageknob:

Wharfedale Linton 2 (1971-1974)

Shelf kind of bookshelf loudspeakers, siblings of the Denton 3.

Included in these acoustic suspensions were a long-throw spider 20cm bass "special" paper cone with rubber surround, an acoustically sealed 10cm mid/high driver with CAB cone (cellulosic Butyrate Acetate). The back proudly hid its modern molded plastic terminals.

The "2" in Linton 2, for once, isn't a series code but a two-way designation to separate it from its Linton 3 three-way sibling.

With 20L of internal volume, 9kg apiece and a maximum of 20W of input power, the Linton 2 and Linton 3 indeed were of the little shelf kind - comfortable in booksy mini shelf decor.

Next up were the big Melton 2, the tall Triton 3 and the Dovedale 3 variant of the Denton 3 - all rather successful.

Specs:

Type : acoustic suspension
Volume : 20L
Maximum input : 20W (DIN)
Nominal impedance : 6 Ohm
Drivers : 20cm bass, 1x 5cm mid/high
Frequency response : 55Hz...16Khz ( 3dB)
Crossover : 1,2Khz
Dimensions : 48,2H x 25,2W x 24D cm
Weight : 18,2kg / pair.
Finishes : teak with black grille cloth
walnut with brown grille cloth


Wharfedale Melton 2 (1971-1974)

Bigger shelf kind of bookshelf loudspeakers - where the shelf better be big otherwise it will slowly crumble. In fact the shelf better be the floor !

Included in the acoustic suspension design were a long-throw spider 30cm bass long-fiber paper cone with rubber surround, a 5cm mid/high friver with lightweight CAB cone (cellulosic Butyrate Acetate).

The enclosure is made of solid wood (front) with the top and sides veneered in teak or walnut.


Around the Melton 2 were the tall Triton 3 and the Dovedale 3 variant of the Denton 3 - all rather successful.
And, yes, there was a Melton 3, too.

These are a bit like the ALTEC model names : the first three you remember distinctly, the next ones blur a little - too many "ton" and too many "dale" sometimes


Specs:

Type : Acoustic suspension
Volume : 34L
Drivers : 1x 30cm, 1x 5cm mid/high
Nominal impedance : 6 Ohm
Power handling : 30W (DIN)
Frequency response : 45Hz...17Khz ( 3dB)
Crossover : 1,5Khz
Dimensions : 53,5 x 37 x 26cm
Weight : 14,5kg.
Finishes : teak with black grille cloth
walnut with brown grille cloth
Attached Images
File Type: jpg wharfedale melton 2 test.jpg (46.3 KB, 191 views)
File Type: jpg Melton 2_Cap Tweak.jpg (193.0 KB, 185 views)
File Type: jpg Melton 2_1_Smaller.jpg (291.5 KB, 179 views)
File Type: jpg Linton 2_Smaller.jpg (367.5 KB, 49 views)

Last edited by Ro808; 17th July 2017 at 08:13 PM.
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Old 17th July 2017, 08:56 PM   #404
Zero D is offline Zero D  United Kingdom
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@ Ro808

A friend of mine had the Wharfedale Linton's back in the day. We & lots of our friends spent many hours over the years, listening to Plenty of Great music on them. Thanx 4 the memories

RE - Wharfdale factory pic in Post #402

1942 was during WW2, so a lot of war news etc must have been listened to on Valve radios with them in. That factory room looks like so many images from back then. No wall insulation or double glazing etc etc. Hot in summer & cold & drafty in winter. At least conditions have vastly improved since then. But, i bet they were happy, & had more fun working than many in recent times.
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Old 17th July 2017, 10:33 PM   #405
Ro808 is offline Ro808  Netherlands
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You are most welcome!

A few more images from Memory Lane then, with tubes.

I forgot to mention one remarkable aspect of these Wharfedales: the blend between the mid/high CAB cone and the woofers was quite exceptional. The low XO point obviously paid off.
Attached Images
File Type: jpg Wharfedale John Collinson and Peter Walker.jpg (144.7 KB, 47 views)
File Type: jpg 2metfront2_Smaller.jpg (336.1 KB, 39 views)
File Type: jpg 2achterkant_Smaller.jpg (271.7 KB, 30 views)
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Old 17th July 2017, 11:17 PM   #406
system7 is offline system7  United Kingdom
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We seem to have shared the Wharfedale experience, Ro808. I had the Lintons and the Meltons. The Melton was possibly more effortless and went deeper.

The tweeter was really a 3" midrange in a small coffee-cup sized plastic enclosure filled with wadding.

Seems like Wharfedale gave it 10uF and 0,18mH. Bass filter to suit around 1kHz.

I have the Sony E44, but it doesn't look like an old SEAS unit to me. But very musical. The tweeter is good too. The original woeful crossover was just 3.3uF to the tweeter. I tidied it all up considerably. Very nice.
Attached Images
File Type: jpg Wharfedale Linton crossover.JPG (37.3 KB, 29 views)
File Type: jpg Wharfedale_Melton_2_Crossover.JPG (56.2 KB, 19 views)
File Type: jpg Wharfedale_Linton_Tweeter.JPG (13.3 KB, 22 views)
File Type: jpg Sony_E44.jpg (96.0 KB, 37 views)
File Type: jpg Sony_E44_Balanced_Drive_Tweeter.jpg (56.4 KB, 32 views)
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Old 18th July 2017, 12:26 AM   #407
Bigun is offline Bigun  Canada
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Classic monitor designs?
can't help thinking we haven't come that much further in speaker design over time
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Old 18th July 2017, 12:27 AM   #408
Ro808 is offline Ro808  Netherlands
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That's fortuitous, Steve.

The Weltons did deliver a clean, firm low end. I had to push it tough, because of the stiff surrounds. Nevertheless, they managed to rattle 'things'.
The appartment in which I lived at that time, allowed me to make a lot of noise, which I did on a regular basis.
The Weltons easily would go north from 100dB. But, I have to admit, the voicecoil eventually melted -at least partly- because of this torture.

The woofer of the Sony E-44 is not from SEAS. It appears to be a light cone with a finely structured, coated fabric surround. Similar to a pro mid/low woofer.
Tomorrow I'll post some SEAS Sony stuff.

Last edited by Ro808; 18th July 2017 at 12:56 AM.
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Old 18th July 2017, 01:32 AM   #409
Ro808 is offline Ro808  Netherlands
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This is one example:

Sony SS-2030

Specs:

3-way configuration,
closed box,
paper cone woofer Seas 21F-GWS 200mm, textile surround, diecast basket,
paper cone midrange Seas 10F-LG 100mm, textile surround, diecast basket, acoustic chamber,
paper cone tweeter Seas 5TV-HFS 50mm, AlNiCo magnet,
30W@8Ω,
45-18000Hz,
sens. -- dB,
mm 280x500x229, kg 7,0.

All drivers and crossover are exposed here
Attached Images
File Type: jpg image.jpg (678.2 KB, 38 views)

Last edited by Ro808; 18th July 2017 at 01:44 AM.
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Old 18th July 2017, 03:37 AM   #410
sklimek is offline sklimek  United States
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Default Two JBL 4313B monitors are singing again!

On another side note here are my two JBL 4313B monitors that I completely reconditioned by replacing the woofer surrounds, replaced the LE5-9 midrange, changed out the old crossover caps w/ Solens and repaired, cleaned and reattached the grill cloth. The process, links and crossover schematics can be found here:

Two 4313B's are singing again...

They sound wonderful.
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File Type: png Screen Shot 2017-07-17 at 9.12.45 PM.png (295.8 KB, 63 views)
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