Pro vs hifi drivers - pros and cons?

[markus76]

Originally Posted by gedlee

above 10 kHz is not needed

Earl

still don't understand where the trade-offs would be. One of your own speakers goes to 15.5kHz (I posted an in-room response several hundred posts back). You use multiple subs that easily reproduce 20Hz at adequate levels. What important aspects did you trade off for that kind of performance?

Best, Markus

[gedlee]

Originally Posted by markus76

Earl

still don't understand where the trade-offs would be. One of your own speakers goes to 15.5kHz (I posted an in-room response several hundred posts back). You use multiple subs that easily reproduce 20Hz at adequate levels. What important aspects did you trade off for that kind of performance?

Best, Markus

Markus

The tradeoff is obvious to me (HF only please, I'm not talking about the LFs, that an entirely different thing). In all my speakers the pristine response that is seen from 1 kHz -10 kHz is no where near as good above 10 kHz. The only solution would be to add another SHF speaker - like JBL does - to extend the response and smooth things out above 10 kHz. But this would be a very poor tradeoff as it would add another crossover, higher cost and complexity, etc. and the benefit would be minimal. And trust me, there are lots of people who think that you need perfectly flat response to 20 kHz to have an "audiophile" speaker. This is simply not true and doing so adds significantly to the price of the end product, all so that the manufacturer can advertise "20kHz".

So while my speakers do have response above 10 kHz, nothing is done intentionally at those frequencies to make it better. Doing so would be a bad tradeoff for the final product.

[markus76]

Originally Posted by gedlee

HF only please, I'm not talking about the LFs, that an entirely different thing.

It was you that started talking about frequencies beyond 10kHz and below 40Hz.

Originally Posted by gedlee

In all my speakers the pristine response that is seen from 1 kHz -10 kHz is no where near as good above 10 kHz.

But good enough. If there would be nothing above 10kHz, would you sell these speakers anyway?

Best, Markus

[Pano]

Geddes last paragraph sums it up nicely. No need to take it any further, guys. We don't need to beat it into the ground.

[Robh3606]

The only solution would be to add another SHF speaker - like JBL does - to extend the response and smooth things out above 10 kHz. But this would be a very poor tradeoff as it would add another crossover, higher cost and complexity, etc. and the benefit would be minimal.

Yes and primarilly market driven where response above 20K is a requirement for SACD/DVDA. I would argue that the benefit is a personal choice as you say for some 20K and above has a magic significance. I have both types of systems and I agree that the improvement is marginal looking at speaker performance overall at least in the systems I have so far.

Rob

[gedlee]

Originally Posted by markus76

It was you that started talking about frequencies beyond 10kHz and below 40Hz.

No, I did not bring up below 40 Hz, I just added a comment. Things are completely different down low and the discussion here, above 10 kHz, is not applicable to below 40 Hz.

But good enough. If there would be nothing above 10kHz, would you sell these speakers anyway?

Best, Markus

That's a hypothetical question that would need better quantification. There certainly would be situations where I would and others where I wouldn't. It all depends.

[badman]

Originally Posted by gedlee

You see, this is precisely my point. ALL studies of this have concluded that harmonic distortion is simply not a factor - why design for it?

But, as with many things, perhaps it's an indicator of quality. I was discussing "imaging and soundstaging" last night. I could care less about these particular aspects of sound, as they're largely constructs of the studio in any case, and don't really add to my enjoyment- in isolation, and to my way of thinking.


BUT! There are things that speakers have to do right to get these things right that ARE important. While THD may not be the critical issue, if it means that the motor is well behaved, then low THD may help to indicate lower levels of other problems.

[markus76]

Originally Posted by gedlee

No, I did not bring up below 40 Hz, I just added a comment. Things are completely different down low and the discussion here, above 10 kHz, is not applicable to below 40 Hz.

Agreed but your comment was misleading (to me).

Originally Posted by gedlee

That's a hypothetical question that would need better quantification. There certainly would be situations where I would and others where I wouldn't. It all depends.

We're still talking about audiophool-grade like stereo and multichannel at home, right?

Best, Markus

[freddi]

seems to me Dr. Geddes approach might be hindered by adding another spatial source, xover and subjective offset, lobing/etc. it could create - the end user of his products might monkey around with an add-on tweeter sitting on top of the cabinets which would do no physical harm to the cabinets. Smooth off-axis response to 15K would be good.

fwiw here's B&C 1" ~ on-axis

Pioneer's copy of the old Peerless 2.5" paper cone tweeter vs DE25 on Transylvania's ~5.2" long tube


prototype Unity horn with similar B&C 1" driver - I didn't rotate it so see how the response held up at high frequencies

[markus76]

Originally Posted by badman

I was discussing "imaging and soundstaging" last night. I could care less about these particular aspects of sound, as they're largely constructs of the studio in any case, and don't really add to my enjoyment- in isolation, and to my way of thinking.

Maybe I use a different definition of the words "imaging and soundstaging" but spatial attributes are at least of the same importance as frequency response and low distortion. Just listen to what a symphonic orchestra in an anechoic space sounds like:



If you're interested send me a PM.

Best, Markus