Pro vs hifi drivers - pros and cons?

[doug20]

Originally posted by phase_accurate


To be more exact: In the beginning there was no difference between pro and HiFi. The started to evolve in the fifties approx.

There was demand for compact speakers delivering as much of the audio spectrum. This was at the cost of efficiency. Since there is (usually !!!) not much demand for high SPLs in a domestic environment the average listener could live with that.

Many modern PA drivers are of high quality nowadays. You can build high quality home systems with these and take advantage of the fact that you (usually !!!) run them at power levles that makes them barely move. Therefore they sound very effortless and dynamic. I have a system that I listen to once in a whil and which is great fun to crank. It uses a 12" JBLK woofer and bi-radial tweeter. But it is definitely larger than my other system that I use mostly.

The main disadvantage of using PA drivers is indeed the system size (specially when you want to go low) - here the usual HiFi systems have their advantage. Remember that it doesn't make sense to listen to hugeh systems close-up in small rooms. Driver integration would be much bettter with a small system using typical HiFi drivers.

Regards

Charles

Good post!

Size is a concern for some but some of us like 12" woofers, it takes me back to the 70s and 80s

I also dont care for full range speakers since I have a couple of good sub system to handle everything below 80Hz but your point highlights that Pro audio drivers can be incredible depending on the requirements.

[doug20]

Originally posted by amiklos





The winner was the Nathan 10 using B&C drivers. Other loudspeakers used in this space were B&W 805 and CM2, Thiel CS2, and some RBH bookshelf speakers. My hifi experiences in other spaces have included a litany of others from Avalon Acoustics Radians to Wilson Grand Slams (not quite A to Z).

There is certainly a lot more to Earl's designs than just the use of pro drivers, but there is such a clear advantage in my opinion w/ regard to dynamics that I don't ever see myself resorting to hifi drivers again. These speakers changed my definition of "rocking".

I'm hoping to play with some more waveguide/pro-woofer combos in the future. I've got some QSC waveguides on my workbench and the TD15M is looking pretty appealing.

Very good, I havent read opinion wrt to the Nathans since the Summas get all the attention.

I have All the QSC waveguides (122i, 152i, 153i), the QSC drivers too....I also own the TD12Ms and Im almost ready to buy the Faital Pros. I will have 3 sets of waveguide designs by the fall, maybe a couple with the Hypex amps/DSPs

Im hoping these designs come close to what Geddes offers.

[Pano]

Originally posted by Tom Danley
You aren’t going to find a 15 inch pro woofer with an Fs of 20Hz.

I'm staring at a pair right now! =) But I will admit, they are unusual. Low Fs in not common in pro drivers. Tom's point is valid.

I tend to like pro drivers, but have heard some very nice "hi-fi" drivers, too.

901fixer. Glad to know you like your Selenium 15". I had a pair of the same that I liked a lot. Nice driver. One got crushed when I moved.

[doug20]

Originally posted by panomaniac
[B]

I'm staring at a pair right now! =) But I will admit, they are unusual. Low Fs in not common in pro drivers. Tom's point is valid.

Really? smallish box, ported?

Would you mind telling me what it is?

[901Fixer]

Originally posted by doug20


Im not a 2-channel critical listener that sits in a middle of a room with two speakers in front of me...that is not remotely my world.

Critical listening is another activity all together. I guess it comes down to the specifications and performance regardless of what category it is in. A hi fi driver may become more efficient and rugged or a ProAudio driver may become more accurate and detailed all the while still doing what they originally do.
I use the 15PW3's in a large (25' x 25') living room and listen to them standing up and walking around, sometimes in other rooms for awhile etc. Even a hi fi system with a sweet spot would not sound as perfect if I am moving around.

Originally posted by panomaniac


I'm staring at a pair right now! =) But I will admit, they are unusual. Low Fs in not common in pro drivers. Tom's point is valid.

901fixer. Glad to know you like your Selenium 15". I had a pair of the same that I liked a lot. Nice driver. One got crushed when I moved.

Very good point and this was discussed in the Woofer vs SubWoofer thread. I don't consider 20hz to be musical or much below 40hz for that matter. I do believe pipe organ music may delve into this region but alas I don't listen to is as much these days. HT and Automotive has pushed the audio world to use subwoofers and seek the lower frequencies that most music never gets to.

The Seleniums are perfect for OB or a large vented enclosure like I am building. 6 cuft with a 25 sq in vent, 1.58" long. I'm still experimenting with them, placement, direction of woofer, crossover point, etc. I only have one built and working but it really fills in where the 901's begin to fail. I hope they can keep up when I get the second one into service.
Sorry to hear one of yours got crushed.

[MaVo]

I wonder where the image of Hifi drivers being more "accurate" comes from. Is it the marketing that needed to give these speakers an edge? (And no, i dont think one can even define this term in some quantifiable way.)

[Robh3606]

Hello Panomaniac


"Originally posted by Tom Danley
You aren’t going to find a 15 inch pro woofer with an Fs of 20Hz."

The only exception I know of are the 15" JBL 2235 and 18" 2245 both with an FS of 20hz. Both can be used as subwoofer drivers although both need large vented boxes say 4.5 cubic ft for the 2235 and 8 cubic ft for the 2245. They also worked guite well in the 80's vintage monitors. 4355/4344/4345/4430. They are not rugged enough to compete with the newer SR drivers but they can work well at home.

Me I use mostly Pro drivers. You set them up right and you won't be disappointed.


Hello Mavo

"I wonder where the image of Hifi drivers being more "accurate" comes from. Is it the marketing that needed to give these speakers an edge? (And no, i dont think one can even define this term in some quantifiable way.)"

Back in the 50's the Pro drivers were the best of the best. You wanted Altec/JBL/Ev etc. Somewhere along the road that changed although I don't understand why. I would think marketing had a hand in it. If you go by bass response an old AR cabinet is going to kill it's Pro contemporaries. Figure maybe 50-60 hz out of an 8 cubic ft box or a solid 30hz from 1.5-2 cubic ft.

What would you want in your livingroom or more importantly your spouse??

Rob

[Andre Visser]

Originally posted by doug20
As for the person wanting to argued I never posted false information about pro audio drivers saying their are heavier then hi-fi...you did and I called you on it asking for some valid proof.

If you can not back up your bold statement with proof I would suggest you not post it in the first place. No arguements needed just proof would be welcome.

Perhaps we understand English differently, let me try and explain what I meant.

The question were: "Pro vs hifi drivers - pros and cons? What is it exacly that hifi drivers do better than pro drivers?"

A pretty broad question I would say, comparing hi-fi vs pro.

My response: "I guess the demands on hi-fi drivers are much lower, that may allow for lighter cones and voice coils which in turn may result in more accurate and detailed sound."

Firstly when someone say "I guess" there are NO "bold statements" that can follow.

Next, there are different design criteria for hi-fi drivers and pro drivers. Talking about designing pro drivers, I would say things like high-power, high SPL and ruggedness would be much higher on the priority list while hi-fi drivers may be designed to operate in smaller and less demanding environments, allowing to optimise the drivers more for SQ. I've said that MAY allow for lighter cones and voice coils which MAY result in more accurate and detailed sound. No BOLD statements.

Originally posted by doug20
DIY does have sciences to it and with that if you are going to post BOLD statements about how hifi drives are superior to pro audio please back up that subjective opinion with specs and measurements. I always love to learn something new but at this point, depending on the requirements pro audio drivers are better.

I've never claimed the one to be superior to the other, both are optimised to operate in different conditions.

Like you say, DEPENDING on the requirements. The original question were "what is it exactly that hifi drivers do better than pro drivers?". From that I would guess we are talking about a hi-fi system in a home setup.

Originally posted by doug20
Hifi / Home Theater......there is a difference?

Yes, to me quite a large difference, NORMAL HT systems are optimised for reproducing movie soundtracks while hi-fi should be optimised for realistic music reproduction.

[woofman59]

A lot of the comments I've read on this thread sound like it's all about measurements. In my experience however, measurements are of course very important, but certainly not everything.

After all, the end result should be something that is pleasing to listen to since that's the reason for building them in the first place. I've heard more than a few speakers that had great measurements but didn't sound that good. Conversely, I've heard speakers that while not so impressive in measurements, actually sounded terrific.

Numbers and graphs are fine to point the way, but in the end, how do they sound?

[Pano]

Originally posted by doug20
Really?

Yes. =)

smallish box, ported?

Alas, no. Huge box. But ported it will be. (not finnished)

The Fs in in free air. One measures 18Hz, the other about 21Hz. I expect them to come down a little with break in. Or not.

Would you mind telling me what it is?

Not at all. They are Altec 416-8A recently reconed at GPA. So not a common pro driver, but pro none the less.

As Rob points about above, there are some others with Fs this low. But it's not the norm today, which was Tom's point.

I do agree that there isn't much music down this low, so it's just a luxury. But there can be a lot of room tone way down there, and that can be fun to hear/feel.