Pro vs hifi drivers - pros and cons?

[Andre Visser]

Originally posted by doug20
Maybe you should go over to some non-science audiophile forum then because nothing you have posted makes any sense to me.

I can clearly understand why it doesn't make sense to you if you don't even understand the meaning of "accurate and detailed". Do you actually listen to speakers?

The question of the original poster did not sound very 'scientific' to me, therefore my answer start with "I guess", but I will remember to ask you first, next time, if I may respond to someones question.

Originally posted by doug20
And you have very limited experience if you believe the Seas drivers are better then some pro drivers

Yes I've said that myself in the sentence before the QUESTION I've asked Theo404, you distorted my question to imply something that I never said.

Originally posted by doug20
Some of the best speakers built based on true scientific measurements are pro-audio designs.

I take it you are talking about hi-fi speakers, any names perhaps?

[Defo]

Originally posted by amiklos
...I've done this and the winner was quite clear to me. [/B]

Who won?

[doug20]

Originally posted by Andre Visser


I can clearly understand why it doesn't make sense to you if you don't even understand the meaning of "accurate and detailed". Do you actually listen to speakers?

I do both, I listen and measure...You do not measure so your subjective listening experience is tainted with BIAS and your opinion would be invalid when we are talking about the true performance of any driver. For all you know you might like distortions and inaccurate drivers because you posted that you have little scientific knowledge and it sounds like you never measure anything.

This is DIY where speakers are built based on measurements and science...listening is just a part of the equation. You can not post opinion just becuase you think you have a golden ear

The question of the original poster did not sound very 'scientific' to me, therefore my answer start with "I guess", but I will remember to ask you first, next time, if I may respond to someones question.

I thought everything here is sceintific. Again, people BUILD speakers .....Its call DIY Audio. I didnt know I joined a crazy non-scientific forum like stereophile.com

Yes I've said that myself in the sentence before the QUESTION I've asked Theo404, you distorted my question to imply something that I never said.



I take it you are talking about hi-fi speakers, any names perhaps?

I didnt think I distorted anything, if I did sorry!

Do you measure drivers?

Do you understand how drivers are built?

As for speaker names...JBL K2, Geddes Summas, Anything Tom Danley makes (Have you heard those? If I could only get a new demo pair (SH-mini) in house!!! ), Many Genelec speakers...the list is pretty big.


I would take them over any boutique hi-fi speaker that does not measure as well meaning they suck for the performance I require. My HT theater demands the best speakers!

[doug20]

Originally posted by amiklos


I can see where you are coming from with your example, but I think you've skipped the comparison of individual drivers and instead focused on a comparison of different systems. My impression is that the OP was asking whether there is an advantage with one class of drivers versus another in a given application.

Certainly we can't meaningfully compare some elaborate concert arrangement to a typical hi-fi tower, but I think we can compare a given pro woofer to a hifi woofer intended to cover a similar bandwidth, or a compression driver to a dome tweeter.

To take it to the system level for comparison, one could take a loudspeaker system using pro drivers in a form factor suitable for a home environment and compare that system to a typical hifi tower, and be closer to an apples to apples comparison. I've done this and the winner was quite clear to me.

Many are building HT speakers with pro-audio drivers these days.

AE speakers has some of the best pro audio woofers around (like the TD series), I believe they are better then any other options in the same price range, I do not know of a 8" or 6" driver that can come even close to the TD12M or TD12S performance.

btw, what was the clear winner for you? Could you name the products demoed?

I want to get the Danely SH-100 or SH-mini in house but I can not find a local dealer and no response back with I emailed Danley. I have cust DIY speakers with (Neopro5i, PHL1120, TD12S) I want to see how the Danley designs compare...I also have NHT speakers, AV123 speakers and older PSB speakers. None of them come close to my custom DIY speakers in terms of dynamics and details but none of them have ribbon tweeters either.

[Andre Visser]

Originally posted by doug20
I do both, I listen and measure...You do not measure so your subjective listening experience is tainted with BIAS and your opinion would be invalid when we are talking about the true performance of any driver. For all you know you might like distortions and inaccurate drivers because you posted that you have little scientific knowledge and it sounds like you never measure anything.

Who said that I do not measure? You are clearly only looking for an argument.

Oh, I like distortions and inaccurate drivers, I will ask Seas to improve their Excel range because you say so.

Originally posted by doug20
This is DIY where speakers are built based on measurements and science...listening is just a part of the equation. You can not post opinion just becuase you think you have a golden ear

Oh sorry my fault, I was under the impression DIY stand for Do It Yourself, glad to hear everybody here are scientists and engineers.

Originally posted by doug20
I thought everything here is sceintific. Again, people BUILD speakers .....Its call DIY Audio. I didnt know I joined a crazy non-scientific forum like stereophile.com

It seems like logic isn't part of being 'scientific', perhaps that explain your attitude.

Originally posted by doug20
I didnt think I distorted anything, if I did sorry!

Well you claimed that I've said something that I never did!

Originally posted by doug20
Do you measure drivers?

No, not yet, I've bought drivers from a company with respectable spec sheets (decided on after listening to several others), which I've used to design my boxes and crossovers. Strangely, the overall speaker response and phasing measure very well and on top of that it sound quite realistic.

Originally posted by doug20
Do you understand how drivers are built?

Uhmm, I've seen a few pictures yes.

Originally posted by doug20
As for speaker names...JBL K2, Geddes Summas, Anything Tom Danley makes (Have you heard those? If I could only get a new demo pair (SH-mini) in house!!! ), Many Genelec speakers...the list is pretty big.

I have listened to one of those brands yes, I will not swop my speakers for theirs.

Originally posted by doug20
I would take them over any boutique hi-fi speaker that does not measure as well meaning they suck for the performance I require. My HT theater demands the best speakers!

We were actually talking about hi-fi, not home theatre.

[doug20]

point by point response, yikes!!....okay you win

Okay, you think this is only bout music have you read about Geddes Summas? You read about he measurements and the performance....give me a hi-fi speaker that does what they do. They are pro-audio designs.

As for the person wanting to argued I never posted false information about pro audio drivers saying their are heavier then hi-fi...you did and I called you on it asking for some valid proof.

If you can not back up your bold statement with proof I would suggest you not post it in the first place. No arguements needed just proof would be welcome.

DIY does have sciences to it and with that if you are going to post BOLD statements about how hifi drives are superior to pro audio please back up that subjective opinion with specs and measurements. I always love to learn something new but at this point, depending on the requirements pro audio drivers are better.

Hifi / Home Theater......there is a difference?

There are non-hi fi drivers out there....Seas drivers are not used in Home Theater??? Stop being so exlusionary and expand you mind.

[901Fixer]

Everything evolves. ProAudio may have started out aiming to be efficient and rugged but along the way as improvements are made their accuracy and detail can be improved without affecting their main goal.

I have a pair of Selenium 15PW3-SLF 15" woofers, 98dB efficient and sound wonderful thru the volume range and can really hammer with only ~85watts per.

[doug20]

Originally posted by 901Fixer
Everything evolves. ProAudio may have started out aiming to be efficient and rugged but along the way as improvements are made their accuracy and detail can be improved without affecting their main goal.

I have a pair of Selenium 15PW3-SLF 15" woofers, 98dB efficient and sound wonderful thru the volume range and can really hammer with only ~85watts per.

The measurements on the TD drivers from AE speakers are incredible.

Someone else posted something about ragged response but I do not see that in some of the recent pro offerings.

I think its great to have 95dB speakers, small amps and the ability to hit 120dB is important to me.

Im not a 2-channel critical listener that sits in a middle of a room with two speakers in front of me...that is not remotely my world.

[phase_accurate]

Everything evolves. ProAudio may have started out aiming to be efficient and rugged but along the way as improvements are made their accuracy and detail can be improved without affecting their main goal.

To be more exact: In the beginning there was no difference between pro and HiFi. The started to evolve in different directions during the fifties approx.

There was demand for compact speakers delivering as much of the audio spectrum. This was at the cost of efficiency. Since there is (usually !!!) not much demand for high SPLs in a domestic environment the average listener could live with that.

Many modern PA drivers are of high quality nowadays. You can build high quality home systems with these and take advantage of the fact that you (usually !!!) run them at power levles that makes them barely move. Therefore they sound very effortless and dynamic. I have a system that I listen to once in a whil and which is great fun to crank. It uses a 12" JBLK woofer and bi-radial tweeter. But it is definitely larger than my other system that I use mostly.

The main disadvantage of using PA drivers is indeed the system size (specially when you want to go low) - here the usual HiFi systems have their advantage. Remember that it doesn't make sense to listen to hugeh systems close-up in small rooms. Driver integration would be much bettter with a small system using typical HiFi drivers.

Regards

Charles

[amiklos]

Originally posted by Defo


Who won?

Originally posted by doug20

btw, what was the clear winner for you? Could you name the products demoed?

The winner was the Nathan 10 using B&C drivers. Other loudspeakers used in this space were B&W 805 and CM2, Thiel CS2, and some RBH bookshelf speakers. My hifi experiences in other spaces have included a litany of others from Avalon Acoustics Radians to Wilson Grand Slams (not quite A to Z).

There is certainly a lot more to Earl's designs than just the use of pro drivers, but there is such a clear advantage in my opinion w/ regard to dynamics that I don't ever see myself resorting to hifi drivers again. These speakers changed my definition of "rocking".

I'm hoping to play with some more waveguide/pro-woofer combos in the future. I've got some QSC waveguides on my workbench and the TD15M is looking pretty appealing.