Pro vs hifi drivers - pros and cons? - Page 27

gedlee · 9th November 2009, 08:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Andre Visser

Just sort out the HF distortions, that's what make a system sound bright or "sizzly". Undistorted flat FR to 20kHz or more certainly doesn't make a system sound bright but will surely add to SQ.

This is unsubstantiated Audiophile Dogma. Do you have any data to substantiate it? There is lots of data that disagrees. Please use the "well I hear it so it must be true" argument so that I can quit this discussion.

panomaniac · 9th November 2009, 09:03 PM

But if there are distortions up that high - will I hear them? What's the 2nd harmonic of 10Khz? And 15? Maybe the distortions I hear and don't like arise from fundamentals in the 4-5K range. I don't know.

I just know that I don't hear that stuff in acoustic music or nature - unless I visit the bat cave!

.

Andre Visser · 9th November 2009, 11:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by gedlee

This is unsubstantiated Audiophile Dogma. Do you have any data to substantiate it? There is lots of data that disagrees. Please use the "well I hear it so it must be true" argument so that I can quit this discussion.

Well sorry to disappoint you then but I can tell you my system measure quite flat up to over 20kHz and there are nothing bright or sizzly in it's sound. It did not just happen, I've paid lots of attention to every component, from CD player through to speakers to achieve that.

gedlee · 9th November 2009, 11:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Andre Visser

Well sorry to disappoint you then but I can tell you my system measure quite flat up to over 20kHz and there are nothing bright or sizzly in it's sound. It did not just happen, I've paid lots of attention to every component, from CD player through to speakers to achieve that.

Thats your data?

tinitus · 12:28 AM

I have found that bright mid/top can easily be caused by even the tiniest artefacts from crossover
One could be very small phase issues
Other could be electrical interacting ressonance issues between xo components
Or if its significant, just plain ordinary BSC

Maybe it isnt really distortion, but sure sounds much alike, and makes music sound artificial, edgy and unnatural, and boring
In worst case you may have whats often referred to as digtal sound
And ofcourse the CD player is blamed fore that

It is ofcourse just a theory based on my own experience, and ofcourse I cant prove any of it
But its just fore my own use, so who cares

Andre Visser · 10th November 2009, 12:19 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by gedlee

Thats your data?

What more do you want?

Quote:

Originally Posted by gedlee

Again, no one complains about my speakers NOT having enough hi-end, if anything they tend to sound bright because of the unusually wide coverage at 10 kHz. But these speakers don't shine at 20 kHz and I really don't care. It's all about "perception". I deal in "quantifiable auditory perception" and most people deal in "marketng perception". The two things tend to be quite different.

I've seen a while ago already that you don't care, I do and spend lots of time finding answers to these problems, not just ignoring them and call everything that doesn't suit my view "hogwash" or "Audiophile Dogma". Is your way the only correct way or are others also allowed to have an opinion based on their experiences?

Do you have data to show that the cause of your bright sound is because of "unusually wide coverage" and not perhaps some distortion?

CLS · 10th November 2009, 02:04 AM

Regarding the HF response, here are some of my observations.

I have a pair of Focal 7" midrange which can play up to the 13~14kHz on axis. This number is in the published FR chart, also revealed by my own simple measurements. Playing fullrange (without filter in front of it), for some recordings (solo piano for example), such HF response is enough in home environment. I feel NO shortcomings of the HF sounds (those attacks and harmonics). My mother plays and teaches piano at home, so I'm very familiar with the sound in the house.

RTA readings of both source input signal and in room mic picking reveal that there is barely HF content beyond 10kHz in piano sound. So my 'midrange' drivers do have sufficient ability to play it.

However, for some other recordings with much more extending HF, e.g., percussions, violins... HF sounds above 10kHz DO exist and I really can hear them, and also my test mic can pick them up and show it on the RTA. My midrange drivers with only 13-14kHz upper limit are now not doing the job well enough. The sounds are obvious darkened, muffled, rounded.... Simply put, now they sounds not what they should. Adding tweeters (and proper xovers of course) solves this 'problem' right away.

One may argue that a 7" midrange beams like hell up there, so actually the HF power response is not enough in the first place, thus the feels of lacking. (Funny that beaming or not, it's perfectly OK in all solo piano recordings, really! )

Let's see other cases.

I've been also playing with some 'fullrange drivers'. They were all used without tweeters and they all beam like hell in HF. However, the performances of their top end are very easily distinguished, both in sound quality and the sense of extension. And, again, of course I 'saw' their responses on RTA which perfectly matched what I heard.

So I'm not convinced that I don't need HF higher than 10kHz. I really need, at least for now. (I'm 40, BTW.)

If I can throw away 10kHz and up, it's really a wonderful thing. Then I am going to plan my next project with compression drivers which are good at midrange and the low end. It should be much easier and cheaper than looking after the very top at the same time.

ashok · 02:45 AM

CLS: This might be due to the fact that the brain is supposedly processing higher frequencies than 'what you can "hear" ' . That gives us a 'sensation' which is not quite equal to "hearing". I would say hearing is probably a situation where you can point out a source. In 'sensation' you can't (?). However 'sensation' of higher frequencies is probably what makes the 'overall sound' different from a version rolled off early 'because we can't hear' above a certain frequency and so shouldn't matter !
My hearing ( with sine waves ) drops off rapidly above 14Khz ( maybe 12 Khz ). However I can clearly hear the difference between something that rolls off by 14Khz and another that extends to 20 Khz or higher. It sounds more airy and cleaner.

There is another thread about the effect of frequencies beyond 20Khz on our hearing capabilities. Skin and bone transmission though highly damped I would think , still appears to play a part in all this.

CLS · 10th November 2009, 03:20 AM

I'm no expert on hearing of human. In fact, I don't care the HF sensation to my brain comes from my ears or other senses. I (my brain, or my mind) do sense those sound frequencies. Last time I tested myself with sine wave, I heard 16kHz. On music recordings, I can 'sense' the different performances up to 20kHz (according to and compared with RTA).

Point is, what should initiate these senses? I'm sure not on me. My brain or my mind can not 'produce' what is not there. So, inevitably there should be something out there giving me those frequencies. Loudspeakers, aren't they? No?

Borat · 10th November 2009, 03:32 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by gedlee

In a hearing test nothing above 8 kHz is ever tested and from intelligabilty tests it is know that nothing above 8 kHz adds or subtracts from intelligability.

so are you making telephones, hearing aids or high end speakers ?

9th November 2009, 09:03 PM	#262
panomaniac diyAudio Moderator Join Date: Oct 2004 Location: North Carolina	But if there are distortions up that high - will I hear them? What's the 2nd harmonic of 10Khz? And 15? Maybe the distortions I hear and don't like arise from fundamentals in the 4-5K range. I don't know. I just know that I don't hear that stuff in acoustic music or nature - unless I visit the bat cave! . __________________ * Bibo, ergo sum.

10th November 2009, 12:17 AM	#265
tinitus diyAudio Moderator Join Date: Nov 2005	I have found that bright mid/top can easily be caused by even the tiniest artefacts from crossover One could be very small phase issues Other could be electrical interacting ressonance issues between xo components Or if its significant, just plain ordinary BSC Maybe it isnt really distortion, but sure sounds much alike, and makes music sound artificial, edgy and unnatural, and boring In worst case you may have whats often referred to as digtal sound And ofcourse the CD player is blamed fore that It is ofcourse just a theory based on my own experience, and ofcourse I cant prove any of it But its just fore my own use, so who cares Last edited by tinitus; 10th November 2009 at 12:28 AM.

10th November 2009, 02:43 AM	#268
ashok diyAudio Member Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: 3RS	CLS: This might be due to the fact that the brain is supposedly processing higher frequencies than 'what you can "hear" ' . That gives us a 'sensation' which is not quite equal to "hearing". I would say hearing is probably a situation where you can point out a source. In 'sensation' you can't (?). However 'sensation' of higher frequencies is probably what makes the 'overall sound' different from a version rolled off early 'because we can't hear' above a certain frequency and so shouldn't matter ! My hearing ( with sine waves ) drops off rapidly above 14Khz ( maybe 12 Khz ). However I can clearly hear the difference between something that rolls off by 14Khz and another that extends to 20 Khz or higher. It sounds more airy and cleaner. There is another thread about the effect of frequencies beyond 20Khz on our hearing capabilities. Skin and bone transmission though highly damped I would think , still appears to play a part in all this. __________________ AM Last edited by ashok; 10th November 2009 at 02:45 AM.

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10th November 2009, 02:04 AM	#267
CLS diyAudio Member Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: Taiwan	Regarding the HF response, here are some of my observations. I have a pair of Focal 7" midrange which can play up to the 13~14kHz on axis. This number is in the published FR chart, also revealed by my own simple measurements. Playing fullrange (without filter in front of it), for some recordings (solo piano for example), such HF response is enough in home environment. I feel NO shortcomings of the HF sounds (those attacks and harmonics). My mother plays and teaches piano at home, so I'm very familiar with the sound in the house. RTA readings of both source input signal and in room mic picking reveal that there is barely HF content beyond 10kHz in piano sound. So my 'midrange' drivers do have sufficient ability to play it. However, for some other recordings with much more extending HF, e.g., percussions, violins... HF sounds above 10kHz DO exist and I really can hear them, and also my test mic can pick them up and show it on the RTA. My midrange drivers with only 13-14kHz upper limit are now not doing the job well enough. The sounds are obvious darkened, muffled, rounded.... Simply put, now they sounds not what they should. Adding tweeters (and proper xovers of course) solves this 'problem' right away. One may argue that a 7" midrange beams like hell up there, so actually the HF power response is not enough in the first place, thus the feels of lacking. (Funny that beaming or not, it's perfectly OK in all solo piano recordings, really! ) Let's see other cases. I've been also playing with some 'fullrange drivers'. They were all used without tweeters and they all beam like hell in HF. However, the performances of their top end are very easily distinguished, both in sound quality and the sense of extension. And, again, of course I 'saw' their responses on RTA which perfectly matched what I heard. So I'm not convinced that I don't need HF higher than 10kHz. I really need, at least for now. (I'm 40, BTW.) If I can throw away 10kHz and up, it's really a wonderful thing. Then I am going to plan my next project with compression drivers which are good at midrange and the low end. It should be much easier and cheaper than looking after the very top at the same time.

10th November 2009, 03:20 AM	#269
CLS diyAudio Member Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: Taiwan	I'm no expert on hearing of human. In fact, I don't care the HF sensation to my brain comes from my ears or other senses. I (my brain, or my mind) do sense those sound frequencies. Last time I tested myself with sine wave, I heard 16kHz. On music recordings, I can 'sense' the different performances up to 20kHz (according to and compared with RTA). Point is, what should initiate these senses? I'm sure not on me. My brain or my mind can not 'produce' what is not there. So, inevitably there should be something out there giving me those frequencies. Loudspeakers, aren't they? No?

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