Pro vs hifi drivers - pros and cons?

[J.R.Freeman]

Good afternoon Gedlee,

Originally Posted by gedlee

Did you read the reviews? I think they pretty much tell the story. Those are not just some reviews, carefully choosen, those are all the reviews. No one hasn't liked the system. It's not a matter of peoples taste, better is better, it's really that simple.

They do look like great systems. You've given me lots to think about! I am more interested than ever to dive into a prosound project. The dynamics are attractive, as that is something I have always found lacking in the few systems I have cobbled together. The waveguides you use are particularly interesting - the material you use to 'fill' the waveguides - does this reduce unwanted reflections or help dispersion? I understand if this is a trade secret that you do not wish to comment on.

This idea that some speakers are good at some things and others at other things is hog-wash.

I'm not as sure of that point - perhaps I've misunderstood? Do you mean in terms of comparing drivers with similar application goals? If not, I would argue that application goals that differ lead to drivers that have different specialties.

For example, consider these two drivers:

The Peerless 830884 8"

The Eminence Beta 8A 8"

Here we have an example of two drivers that could be considered good, but have different goals. The Peerless would not be the best choice for high SPL applications, and it looks as thought it would have to cross over lower comparatively. It does however appear to have smoother response through its usable band (though the resolution of the provided data is not great!) and a bit more low end extension. In my opinion the Peerless would be the better choice for a modest SPL, comparatively near-field application, where the Eminence driver would be my choice for higher SPL, and higher dynamic situations such as large room live-performance oriented system or high quality home theater.

Certainly a random comparison of two drivers at face value is not to be taken as proof that prosound drivers aren't for use in hi-fi. That's not what I mean at all and I bet the systems you've put together with prosound units have great SQ and the rest. But my (rather long-winded!) point is that I am not certain even great prosound drivers are the best fit for every requirement.

By the way, you seem to have an open mind. That's a rare thing in the audiofool community. Keep it up and you will reach Nirvana.

Thank you! I do try, though I must admit that my preconceptions get the best of me at times.

Jim

[Pano]

It would be very interesting to hear the Peerless and the Eminence compared in the same 3-way rig. Certainly a worthy experiment.

I have heard the Beta-8 used as a midrange with only a small inductor to flatten it. A really nice driver. Much more "refined" than you might think. Wonder how the Peerless would compare. Less efficient, but other than that?

.

[Borat]

Originally Posted by gedlee

Except that it is the other way arround - you have to pad down the 106 dB compression driver to match the 96 dB woofer - at least at the low end in a CD system, the high end is usually at about the right level. This makes a passive design quite reasonable. In fact in a great many tests of active versus passive crossover implimentations we found that there really wasn't an audible difference. Quite a big cost difference however.

i don't consider compression drivers to be of acceptable sound quality beyond about 10 khz. ( this doesn't include ring radiators / bullets or custom drivers like the supertweeter in JBL Everest ).

but then i also don't consider dynamic headphones to have acceptable treble sound quality.

and when i heard electrostats they didn't have acceptable treble sound quality to me either.

hm ... and i only hear to 17 khz. i wonder what guys who hear to 22 khz think LOL.

if i can hear the difference between 1" alu/mag dome and 1" titanium dome then i certainly don't want to be listening to 1.75" metal dome ...

i would gladly take a compression driver with 1 inch VC, 1/3 inch throat and a 5 slit phase lens. but who will give one to me ? i can't afford JBL Everest

[MisterTwister]

I agree with Borat, 1.75" metal dome just can't sound good, it has distinct metalic resonance. Although a piece of foam, like in gedlee's system, should absorb most of the resonance. The only compression driver I'd get is BMS, because it has extremely well damped ring diaphragm.

[Pano]

Everyone has different tastes. <shrug> And I don't like most tweeters, either.

[kevinkr]

Originally Posted by panomaniac

Everyone has different tastes. <shrug> And I don't like most tweeters, either.

With you on that Mike, and my whole affair with horns and HE in general started with the JBL 075/2402 annular ring radiator horn tweeter. I've had both alnico and ferrite. Currently using the 2402 ferrite version. It's not perfect, but there is something about it that I find rather appealing.

[gedlee]

Originally Posted by Borat

i don't consider compression drivers to be of acceptable sound quality beyond about 10 khz.

And I don't consider anything above 10 kHz to be of much importance. Numerous tests on this have been done and in general you can remove everything above 10 kHz and almost no one will detect it. It's possible to design a test and a signal for which this is not true, but on music sources with typical listeners no one can tell. No matter what you might think, the frequencies above 10 kHz just are not that important.

Originally Posted by MisterTwister

The only compression driver I'd get is BMS, because it has extremely well damped ring diaphragm.

The ring diaphragm is no better damped than a dome. Its just smaller and therefor lighter.

[Pano]

Originally Posted by gedlee

the frequencies above 10 kHz just are not that important.

Oh No! You'll lose a whole octave!!

I actually like stuff that is rolled off about 12-15K. Systems that go higher sound fake to me. Too sizzly. I just don't hear that stuff in real life. But everyone's ears are different.


Yeah Kevin, we are on the same page. The horn stuff isn't perfect, but done right it has a realism that few other drivers can approach.

.

[JoshK]

Originally Posted by gedlee

And I don't consider anything above 10 kHz to be of much importance. Numerous tests on this have been done and in general you can remove everything above 10 kHz and almost no one will detect it. It's possible to design a test and a signal for which this is not true, but on music sources with typical listeners no one can tell. No matter what you might think, the frequencies above 10 kHz just are not that important.



The ring diaphragm is no better damped than a dome. Its just smaller and therefor lighter.

What happens to transients such as rim shots when you truncate HFs?

[Pano]

A good question!
I just don't find that much difference. I hear/feel most of that impact down lower. Rock kick drum does have a lot of HF energy, at least mixed live, but it it doesn't go above 10K, IIRC.

Getting the crossover phase and horn position right has a lot more effect on the impact. For me, at least.