Running through the t/s parameters of a 15" Blueprint 1503 driver in computer software(winISD) told me that if the Blueprint was put into a 120L sealed 0.5qtc box it would produce the following approximate SPL at 1000W power without room gain:
10Hz - 95Db
15Hz - 102Db
20Hz - 105.5Db
25Hz - 108Db
30Hz - 110Db
40Hz - 112.5Db
50Hz - 114Db
60Hz - 115Db
The driver has a EXCEPTIONAL Xmax of 25.86mm
Is the driver being used to its full SPL potential in a sealed box or can it be better?
If a driver has that much excursion it should produce alot more SPL than what I have listed. Or is this the limit in SPL of a BP1503 in a sealed enclosure?
Heard that a PR box using a 12" peerless xls driver achieves identical SPL but the Blueprint has TWICE THE AMOUNT OF EXCURSION OF THE PEERLESS plus its displacement can swallow up the displacement of 2.5 peerlesses anyway
NOTE: Don't suggest to me to use a ported or PR..etc box....the piont is that I'm trying to extract maximum SPL from only a sealed box from the BP1503
10Hz - 95Db
15Hz - 102Db
20Hz - 105.5Db
25Hz - 108Db
30Hz - 110Db
40Hz - 112.5Db
50Hz - 114Db
60Hz - 115Db
The driver has a EXCEPTIONAL Xmax of 25.86mm
Is the driver being used to its full SPL potential in a sealed box or can it be better?
If a driver has that much excursion it should produce alot more SPL than what I have listed. Or is this the limit in SPL of a BP1503 in a sealed enclosure?
Heard that a PR box using a 12" peerless xls driver achieves identical SPL but the Blueprint has TWICE THE AMOUNT OF EXCURSION OF THE PEERLESS plus its displacement can swallow up the displacement of 2.5 peerlesses anyway
NOTE: Don't suggest to me to use a ported or PR..etc box....the piont is that I'm trying to extract maximum SPL from only a sealed box from the BP1503
Gum:
Your quote: "Heard that a PR box using a 12" peerless xls driver achieves identical SPL but the Blueprint has TWICE THE AMOUNT OF EXCURSION OF THE PEERLESS plus its displacement can swallow up the displacement of 2.5 peerlesses anyway".
The Peerless is in a Passive Radiator box. The reason we have ported and passive radiator boxes-essentially the same principle-is that the action of the port or passive radiator REPLACES the excursion of the cone.
There is a reason that designers recommend that the passive radiator have AT LEAST twice the displacement of the driven speaker. You have just discovered it.
In fact, in most well built ported boxes, at resonance the speaker is moving only ONE FOURTH the distance it would have to move if it had to produce the same frequency without a port or passive radiator. Passive radiator boxes operate on similar principles to ported boxes.
Put a speaker in a sealed box. Measure the excursion at a given bass frequency and a given spl. Now, vent the box and tune to that frequency. Adjust the power so the SPL is identical to the sealed box. Your excursion will be between one fourth and one half of the excursion of the same speaker in the sealed box.
If the sealed box is operating at max excursion, the ported box will have between 2 and 4 times more travel to go before it hits max excursion. Passive radiators are similar.
AudioFreak: That 25 mm, (1 inch), excursion is one way for the Blueprint 1503.
Your quote: "Heard that a PR box using a 12" peerless xls driver achieves identical SPL but the Blueprint has TWICE THE AMOUNT OF EXCURSION OF THE PEERLESS plus its displacement can swallow up the displacement of 2.5 peerlesses anyway".
The Peerless is in a Passive Radiator box. The reason we have ported and passive radiator boxes-essentially the same principle-is that the action of the port or passive radiator REPLACES the excursion of the cone.
There is a reason that designers recommend that the passive radiator have AT LEAST twice the displacement of the driven speaker. You have just discovered it.
In fact, in most well built ported boxes, at resonance the speaker is moving only ONE FOURTH the distance it would have to move if it had to produce the same frequency without a port or passive radiator. Passive radiator boxes operate on similar principles to ported boxes.
Put a speaker in a sealed box. Measure the excursion at a given bass frequency and a given spl. Now, vent the box and tune to that frequency. Adjust the power so the SPL is identical to the sealed box. Your excursion will be between one fourth and one half of the excursion of the same speaker in the sealed box.
If the sealed box is operating at max excursion, the ported box will have between 2 and 4 times more travel to go before it hits max excursion. Passive radiators are similar.
AudioFreak: That 25 mm, (1 inch), excursion is one way for the Blueprint 1503.
Gum:
Something seems amiss with those numbers that WinISD gave you for the SPL the Blueprint 1503 can give you at various frequencies.
For example, at 15 Hz, the SPL that a 1000W amp can achieve with it in a 120 liter sealed box is 102 dB. At 30 Hz-one octave higher-it is 110 dB. The difference is 8 dB.
Even if the speaker/box combo was flat all the way down to 15 Hz, instead of beginning to roll off, these numbers would appear suspicious. With the rolloff factored in, the situation is worse.
If a speaker is at 102 dB at max excursion, then when it goes one octave higher, it should be able to crank out 12 dB more. That is because it takes only one fourth the air volume moved to produce a sound that is one octave higher at the same SPL. Since the speaker, at 30 Hz, only needs one fourth the excursion to maintain it's SPL level that it needed at 15 Hz, when it goes to it's max excursion at 30 Hz it will produce 12 dB higher SPL.
4 times the air displaced equals either:
a) the same SPL at one octave lower frequency
or
b) 12 dB higher SPL at the same frequency .
Moreover, since the output at constant voltage is rolling off from 30 Hz to 15 Hz, the output at 30 Hz from a 1000W amp should be much more than 12 dB higher than it is at 15 Hz.
Something appears wrong.
Something seems amiss with those numbers that WinISD gave you for the SPL the Blueprint 1503 can give you at various frequencies.
For example, at 15 Hz, the SPL that a 1000W amp can achieve with it in a 120 liter sealed box is 102 dB. At 30 Hz-one octave higher-it is 110 dB. The difference is 8 dB.
Even if the speaker/box combo was flat all the way down to 15 Hz, instead of beginning to roll off, these numbers would appear suspicious. With the rolloff factored in, the situation is worse.
If a speaker is at 102 dB at max excursion, then when it goes one octave higher, it should be able to crank out 12 dB more. That is because it takes only one fourth the air volume moved to produce a sound that is one octave higher at the same SPL. Since the speaker, at 30 Hz, only needs one fourth the excursion to maintain it's SPL level that it needed at 15 Hz, when it goes to it's max excursion at 30 Hz it will produce 12 dB higher SPL.
4 times the air displaced equals either:
a) the same SPL at one octave lower frequency
or
b) 12 dB higher SPL at the same frequency .
Moreover, since the output at constant voltage is rolling off from 30 Hz to 15 Hz, the output at 30 Hz from a 1000W amp should be much more than 12 dB higher than it is at 15 Hz.
Something appears wrong.
something is wrong....I'm not on the right track? This post is to make sure I'm using the software the right way
here are the details of the driver
someone plot the stats from the DUMAX report into their loudspeaker design software
(Your software has to be capable of graphing the SPL at max power)
choose a sealed box then modify the box so it is at 0.5qtc
power handling should be 1000W RMS
Note the max SPL graph....anything different...if so PLEASE POST IT HERE
If the SPL readings are the same as the ones I've posted here then I know that I'm on the right track.
here are the details of the driver
An externally hosted image should be here but it was not working when we last tested it.
someone plot the stats from the DUMAX report into their loudspeaker design software
(Your software has to be capable of graphing the SPL at max power)
choose a sealed box then modify the box so it is at 0.5qtc
power handling should be 1000W RMS
Note the max SPL graph....anything different...if so PLEASE POST IT HERE
If the SPL readings are the same as the ones I've posted here then I know that I'm on the right track.
Gum:
Just thought I would throw in that the volume of air to achieve 112 dB at 15 Hz is about 295 cu inches, or 4600 cubic centimeters. Do not forget to convert 25 mm excursion into 2.5 cm excursion when you figure Vd if you use Metric.
Also at 112 dB:
20 Hz = 129 cu in. or 2015 cc
25 Hz = 100 cu in. or 1560 cc
30 Hz = 74 cu. in or 1155 cc
At 106 dB:
15 Hz = 147 cu in. or 2304 cc
20 Hz = 64 cu in. or 1009 cc
25 Hz = 50 cu in. or 781 cc
30 Hz = 37 cu in. or 578 cc
These figures apply no matter how powerful your amp is. These amounts of air must be moved if these SPL's are to be achieved in a sealed box. These Vd, (Volume of Displaced air) are calculated using the center-to-peak figure of the max excursion. Divide peak-to-peak excursion in half to get that figure.
Just thought I would throw in that the volume of air to achieve 112 dB at 15 Hz is about 295 cu inches, or 4600 cubic centimeters. Do not forget to convert 25 mm excursion into 2.5 cm excursion when you figure Vd if you use Metric.
Also at 112 dB:
20 Hz = 129 cu in. or 2015 cc
25 Hz = 100 cu in. or 1560 cc
30 Hz = 74 cu. in or 1155 cc
At 106 dB:
15 Hz = 147 cu in. or 2304 cc
20 Hz = 64 cu in. or 1009 cc
25 Hz = 50 cu in. or 781 cc
30 Hz = 37 cu in. or 578 cc
These figures apply no matter how powerful your amp is. These amounts of air must be moved if these SPL's are to be achieved in a sealed box. These Vd, (Volume of Displaced air) are calculated using the center-to-peak figure of the max excursion. Divide peak-to-peak excursion in half to get that figure.
kelticwizard,
I know that in sealed cabinets the response drops 12Db/octave after F3 (I think)
But I can't help it. Maybe Win ISD is wrong......I'm here just asking to make sure that I designed a proper sealed enclosure for the 1503......an enclosure that can harness its full potential with fastest group delay and extreme SPL
I know that in sealed cabinets the response drops 12Db/octave after F3 (I think)
But I can't help it. Maybe Win ISD is wrong......I'm here just asking to make sure that I designed a proper sealed enclosure for the 1503......an enclosure that can harness its full potential with fastest group delay and extreme SPL
Gum:
The max SPL is limited by the efficiency of the Blueprint and it's rolloff characteristic rather than lack of Vd.
I ran a frequency response chart on Boxplot for 107 liters, (Boxplot suggests you allow for making box 10% larger than the printout), which will give me a response for a box that 120 liters, sealed.
At 15 Hz, the 1503 in a 120 liter box plays at 75 SPL @ 1 Watt/Meter. So at 1000 Watts, you raise the SPL 30 dB to 105 dB. Actually , that coincides with it's Vd of 2010 cc approximately.
These other frequencies are not limited by the Vd of the 1503.
All are 30 dB above what the 1 Watt/Meter reading is. That is what 1000 watts delivers-30 dB above the 1 Watt reading.
20 Hz = 109 dB
25 Hz = 112 dB
30 Hz = 114 dB
40 Hz = 116 dB
50 Hz = 118 dB
These are somewhat higher than your program allows. Room gain is NOT taken into account.
Check your frequency response chart at 1 Watt readings. Is the 1503 30 dB down from these figures at the appropriate frequencies? Remember, the 1503 sensitivity if 91 dB@ 1 Watt. If it is not, we have a conflict on our programs.
The max SPL is limited by the efficiency of the Blueprint and it's rolloff characteristic rather than lack of Vd.
I ran a frequency response chart on Boxplot for 107 liters, (Boxplot suggests you allow for making box 10% larger than the printout), which will give me a response for a box that 120 liters, sealed.
At 15 Hz, the 1503 in a 120 liter box plays at 75 SPL @ 1 Watt/Meter. So at 1000 Watts, you raise the SPL 30 dB to 105 dB. Actually , that coincides with it's Vd of 2010 cc approximately.
These other frequencies are not limited by the Vd of the 1503.
All are 30 dB above what the 1 Watt/Meter reading is. That is what 1000 watts delivers-30 dB above the 1 Watt reading.
20 Hz = 109 dB
25 Hz = 112 dB
30 Hz = 114 dB
40 Hz = 116 dB
50 Hz = 118 dB
These are somewhat higher than your program allows. Room gain is NOT taken into account.
Check your frequency response chart at 1 Watt readings. Is the 1503 30 dB down from these figures at the appropriate frequencies? Remember, the 1503 sensitivity if 91 dB@ 1 Watt. If it is not, we have a conflict on our programs.
winISD can handle high power without a problem and it's results agree with boxplot and WinSpeakerz the trouble is in the accuracy of the driver database which comes with these or other such programs.... upon looking at them i have gotten 3 different sets of data from 3 different database entries in different programs............
Gum:
If the sensitivity is in fact 87.6 instead of 91 dB, then we have gone a long way toward solving the discrepancy. That is a difference of 3.4 dB, and the figures I calculated are about 4 dB more than the WinISD figures.
As for the rolloff, the speaker/box combination has a low Q of 0.5. This configuration is getting to be increasingly popular. Before, most sealed manufacturers aimed for a Q of 1 or of .7.
The higher the Q, the steeper the rolloff after you hit resonance. F3 doesn't have anything to do with it.
Since 0.5 is a low Q for a speaker/box combination, the bass rolloff will be more gradual.
Try running the program for a sealed volume of 15 liters. That should give you a final speaker/box Q, (otherwise known as Qtc) of about 1. The resonance frequency will be about 67 Hz. See what the rolloff characteristics look like then. It should be about 12 dB/octave after you hit 67 Hz.
One important thing to re-emphasize is that in the box of 120 liters, your SPL will be limited not by the excursion of the cone, but by the sensitivity of the 1503 and the fact that you can put "only" 1,000 Watts through it. All the way down to 15 Hz, the 1503 has "extra excursion" to move after the 1,000 Watts have been pumped through it.
If the sensitivity is in fact 87.6 instead of 91 dB, then we have gone a long way toward solving the discrepancy. That is a difference of 3.4 dB, and the figures I calculated are about 4 dB more than the WinISD figures.
As for the rolloff, the speaker/box combination has a low Q of 0.5. This configuration is getting to be increasingly popular. Before, most sealed manufacturers aimed for a Q of 1 or of .7.
The higher the Q, the steeper the rolloff after you hit resonance. F3 doesn't have anything to do with it.
Since 0.5 is a low Q for a speaker/box combination, the bass rolloff will be more gradual.
Try running the program for a sealed volume of 15 liters. That should give you a final speaker/box Q, (otherwise known as Qtc) of about 1. The resonance frequency will be about 67 Hz. See what the rolloff characteristics look like then. It should be about 12 dB/octave after you hit 67 Hz.
One important thing to re-emphasize is that in the box of 120 liters, your SPL will be limited not by the excursion of the cone, but by the sensitivity of the 1503 and the fact that you can put "only" 1,000 Watts through it. All the way down to 15 Hz, the 1503 has "extra excursion" to move after the 1,000 Watts have been pumped through it.
are these more accurate specs impressive for a 15" subwoofer?
Is this subwoofer louder than a Velodyne HGS 18? If so ...by how much?
For those who know the PR Stryke audio cube....is this sub louder or is the Stryke louder?
Note: Room gain is NOT included
Relative
Freq .....Gain ...MAX SPL
[Hz] ..... [dB] ....[dB]
10.00 -22.01 95.59
15.00 -15.78 101.82
20.00 -11.80 105.80
25.00 -9.09 108.51
30.00 -7.16 110.44
35.00 -5.76 111.84
40.00 -4.70 112.90
45.00 -3.90 113.70
50.00 -3.28 114.32
55.00 -2.79 114.81
60.00 -2.40 115.20
65.00 -2.08 115.52
70.00 -1.82 115.78
75.00 -1.61 115.99
80.00 -1.43 116.17
85.00 -1.28 116.32
90.00 -1.15 116.45
95.00 -1.04 116.56
100.00 -0.94 116.66
BTW...how much Decibels do you add for room gain in a subwoofer in a typical listening room?
Is this subwoofer louder than a Velodyne HGS 18? If so ...by how much?
For those who know the PR Stryke audio cube....is this sub louder or is the Stryke louder?
Note: Room gain is NOT included
Relative
Freq .....Gain ...MAX SPL
[Hz] ..... [dB] ....[dB]
10.00 -22.01 95.59
15.00 -15.78 101.82
20.00 -11.80 105.80
25.00 -9.09 108.51
30.00 -7.16 110.44
35.00 -5.76 111.84
40.00 -4.70 112.90
45.00 -3.90 113.70
50.00 -3.28 114.32
55.00 -2.79 114.81
60.00 -2.40 115.20
65.00 -2.08 115.52
70.00 -1.82 115.78
75.00 -1.61 115.99
80.00 -1.43 116.17
85.00 -1.28 116.32
90.00 -1.15 116.45
95.00 -1.04 116.56
100.00 -0.94 116.66
BTW...how much Decibels do you add for room gain in a subwoofer in a typical listening room?
Gum:
I put a couple of links to room gain charts on Ignite's thread, entitled "Room Gain". Here is the link to the thread, which contains the links to the charts: http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/showthread.php?threadid=1261&highlight=room+gain
You want to increase performance? Time to say the "P" word-Ported. Run the programs with the speaker tuned to 16 Hz. A 5 inch diameter port that tunes a 4.2 cu. ft box to 16 Hz takes up about half a cubic foot, so be sure to run the program with a box volume of 3.7 cu. ft , or 105 liters, to compensate. If you run Boxpot, make Alpha 1.00-the speaker's Vas is 92 liters, and with Boxplot, you want to take an additional 10 percent off.
Even with the volume adjustments, look at that reponse jump at 16 Hz or above. Yes, as with all ported boxes, once you hit the box tuning frequency, that is it-there is nothing usable under that. But a study has shown-granted, the study was run in the 80's-that there were no soundtracks at all and only 5 music CD's with bass below 16 Hz. It is a great cutoff to aim for.
Don't forget that your hearing becomes less and less sensitive the lower the frequency. To which I will also add that such things as distortion, etc., become less hearable as well. Really, when you move into the under 30 Hz range, you are looking for something to make a roar. The higher frequencies are where the subtle interplay of voice, strings, etc become important, and those are handled by different drivers.
But don't take my word for it. It seems to me that you have a very attractive option. Build the 120 liter enclosure for the 1503. Include in it a 5 inch port-with a good, sturdy, airtight plug, capable of being a permanent installation. Run the sub with the plug in-and the plug out. Compare-it is your sub after all.
I put a couple of links to room gain charts on Ignite's thread, entitled "Room Gain". Here is the link to the thread, which contains the links to the charts: http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/showthread.php?threadid=1261&highlight=room+gain
You want to increase performance? Time to say the "P" word-Ported. Run the programs with the speaker tuned to 16 Hz. A 5 inch diameter port that tunes a 4.2 cu. ft box to 16 Hz takes up about half a cubic foot, so be sure to run the program with a box volume of 3.7 cu. ft , or 105 liters, to compensate. If you run Boxpot, make Alpha 1.00-the speaker's Vas is 92 liters, and with Boxplot, you want to take an additional 10 percent off.
Even with the volume adjustments, look at that reponse jump at 16 Hz or above. Yes, as with all ported boxes, once you hit the box tuning frequency, that is it-there is nothing usable under that. But a study has shown-granted, the study was run in the 80's-that there were no soundtracks at all and only 5 music CD's with bass below 16 Hz. It is a great cutoff to aim for.
Don't forget that your hearing becomes less and less sensitive the lower the frequency. To which I will also add that such things as distortion, etc., become less hearable as well. Really, when you move into the under 30 Hz range, you are looking for something to make a roar. The higher frequencies are where the subtle interplay of voice, strings, etc become important, and those are handled by different drivers.
But don't take my word for it. It seems to me that you have a very attractive option. Build the 120 liter enclosure for the 1503. Include in it a 5 inch port-with a good, sturdy, airtight plug, capable of being a permanent installation. Run the sub with the plug in-and the plug out. Compare-it is your sub after all.
ported boxes arn't the way to go....i need superior transient response because i'm listening to 100% MUSIC..not home theatre
I don't want the 'muddy' sound of the ported box which is suited for home theatre.....I rather have the 'constipated' sound of the sealed box because it is quick and suited to music
I don't want the 'muddy' sound of the ported box which is suited for home theatre.....I rather have the 'constipated' sound of the sealed box because it is quick and suited to music
So now the entire ported principle has been consigned to "Home Theater Only"? Thanks for the news.
I'm sure the people who have spent $5,000 on such speakers as the B&W Matrix 801 will be saddened to discover that they have home theater speakers.
At any rate, the sealed box has it's adherents, and you are perfectly entitled to build your sub on that principle. If only you could find a speaker like the Blueprint 1503 but with a higher Q-that would help your output problems in the very low bass range versus the ported system.
Good luck!
I'm sure the people who have spent $5,000 on such speakers as the B&W Matrix 801 will be saddened to discover that they have home theater speakers.
At any rate, the sealed box has it's adherents, and you are perfectly entitled to build your sub on that principle. If only you could find a speaker like the Blueprint 1503 but with a higher Q-that would help your output problems in the very low bass range versus the ported system.
Good luck!
I would cheerfully strangle the idiot who started this whole concept that there are "Home Theater" subs and "Music" subs.
A well designed sub is a well designed sub, and will work well for either application. The requirements are identical: flat response, good transient response, low distortion, and adequate volume levels for the listener.
Granted, I lean slightly towards sealed enclosures on a maybe 60/40 ratio, but I've also heard some really excellent ported systems that I could happily live with.
Grey
A well designed sub is a well designed sub, and will work well for either application. The requirements are identical: flat response, good transient response, low distortion, and adequate volume levels for the listener.
Granted, I lean slightly towards sealed enclosures on a maybe 60/40 ratio, but I've also heard some really excellent ported systems that I could happily live with.
Grey
I've been seriously mislead
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I would cheerfully strangle the idiot who started this whole concept that there are "Home Theater" subs and "Music" subs.
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I've been mislead by some magazine reviewers who say..."This sub is suited to hometheater"...."This sub is suited to music"....because they can distinguish differences in sound quality between the two applications
The subs they preferred for home theater seemed to consist of a significant number of ported subs while the subs they preferred for music seem to be mostly sealed subs...
Is that the answer why my posts are a troll like quality?
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I would cheerfully strangle the idiot who started this whole concept that there are "Home Theater" subs and "Music" subs.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I've been mislead by some magazine reviewers who say..."This sub is suited to hometheater"...."This sub is suited to music"....because they can distinguish differences in sound quality between the two applications
The subs they preferred for home theater seemed to consist of a significant number of ported subs while the subs they preferred for music seem to be mostly sealed subs...
Is that the answer why my posts are a troll like quality?
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