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Old 1st July 2009, 07:00 AM   #21
Jobsti is offline Jobsti  Germany
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Quote:
Originally posted by Piek
Hi for PA levels, I wouldnt use my 1" driver crossed over at 1KHz, at home it is no problem. I use a RCF CD1710MT3 on RCF H100, the neodyme version is still available. The Celestion CDX1-1430 is also told to work that low on Stereolab 400 horn (home use).
For PA and home use I would think about bms 4554 and B&C ME90:
Measurement from jobst-audio.de:http://s10b.directupload.net/file/d/...7ob6mc_jpg.htm

-Micha

Good morning everyone ;-)

Distortion BMS 4554 16 Ohm on Me90.
50W with MT-1514 Prototype Crossover (old measurement):
Click the image to open in full size.


BMS 4554 16 Ohm on different baffles (older measurements without baffle):
Click the image to open in full size.


For comparison, Dark red: BMS 4554 16 Ohm on XT1464, 5dB raised!
Click the image to open in full size.


bms4550_8ohm on H100 without baffle
bms4550_8ohm on XT1086 with MT-101 Baffle.
bms4550_8ohm on xr1064 with MT-210 Baffle.
Click the image to open in full size.


RCF ND350 & N350 on H100:
Click the image to open in full size.
(Dark: Measurement isn't from me, a bit older, from a Friend.)


Masured in the amount of 2m, 2m distance, with Haun MBNM 550 microphone and ARTA.
Older measurements with a calibrated Stageline ECM40.


BMS has very good 44,4 mm Drivers, which can very low Xovered.
Theay're very popular in the HiFi Scene on big Tractrix horns.

But the coax Drivers have a relative high distortion (K3) from the 1", don't know why... What a shame ;-)

The RCF n350 is also one of my favourite 1" Drivers, it sounds a little bit more "pa-like" as the BMS drivers,
but not nasty.


1424bt is also a good and cheap 1,4" Driver, but with a bigger VC as 4554. 2,4".
It can be xovered lower and plays louder as the BMS,
I think it's the perfect mix between a big 3" VC driver and a small 1,75" VC Driver.
I made a 212 top with 2x 12nd710 an the 1424bt on XR1464.
Measurement from this 4Ohm Box with 543W:
http://jobst-audio.de/Entwicklungen/...mt-212-002.jpg
Xover @ 1,3 kHz



Most of the 1" Drivers with 44,4mm VC can be Xovered under 1kHz for HiFi bins, but not on little Horns and not for PA!



An insider tip from me, is ne little BMS 4524, which is very cheap and perfekt for little, cheap designs,
plays perfect on P.Audio PH170:
Click the image to open in full size.
But nothig for <2kHz!
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Old 1st July 2009, 03:24 PM   #22
fb is offline fb  Australia
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Jobsti, thankyou very much for your reply and measurements.


Have you tried the ND1424BT with the XT1464? Would it handle 1000hz crossover? 18Sound recommends >1200hz.


Which has the best sound?
ND1424BT+XT1464
4554+XT1464
4550+XT1086




Thanks
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Old 1st July 2009, 05:33 PM   #23
Jobsti is offline Jobsti  Germany
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hmmm. the best sound...

I like the Sound from the BMS 4554 on Me90 and 4550+XT1086.
But 4550 on Limmer 022 is also great! (No measurement @ the moment)
On H100 I like the n350, also for HiFi-use with L8S800 ;-)

But 1424bt has more SPL reserves between 1-4kHz as the BMS because the bigger diaphragm and VC,
but the BMS sounds more like HiFi, I think.

The reserves are "only" important für very dynamic Livemusic-concerts an high SPL-use.

ND1424BT+XT1464 haven't measured/listen to yet.

I would use N350 on H100 or 4550 on 022 or XT1086 or on a tractrix for HiFi.

You can handle acoustical crossovers round about 1kHz for HiFi Use with all drivers.
But you have to look at the distortions, max SPL or rather what a speakercombination/Speakersizes do you want to use with the HF-Horn-combination... and which filter.


Example:
If you use a weakly 8", maybe you can crossover round about 900Hz, because the max SPL is defined from the 8" Driver and not realy high.
If you use a loud 12", you have set the xover considerably higher, because the HF Driver has at higher SPL too much distortions below.

solution:
The HT-combi and the Lowmid in front of your mic, and measuring measuring measuring ;-)


So much bigger the Horn and/or Driver (VC/Dia.), so much lower can you apply the acoustical crossoverFreq.
But as bigger the VC, such less the brilliance.
So I would prefer 44,4mm HFs for HiFi, possibly with a big Horn for lower crossovers.


My english is so wonderful awesome

Note:
The 4554 is theoretical an 1", only with 1,4" mouth!
So a 4550, which you can mount on a 1,4" Horn,
the 4550 sound very similar to the 4554.
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Old 1st July 2009, 08:36 PM   #24
Jobsti is offline Jobsti  Germany
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Ah, I skipped, that you will use it with a 15" Driver, oooooh........ ;-)

For this combination, will the 1424bt be good on me90, or maybe as well on Limmer 809/806.
You obtain lower crossoverpoints as with the BMS.

But if you want to crossover below 1,2kHz, the XT1464 will be better 4u, but you have to use a 18-24dB/Okt. filter!

In MT-1514, I have an acoustical Crossover with 4554+ME 90 @ 1,1kHz,
but an extreme steeply acoustical roll off!
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Old 7th July 2009, 01:10 AM   #25
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To make things worse, also consider in your (other/s) aplications, maybe not for this project, this interesting BMS 4510ND Planar with low vertical dispersion. Similars from Beyma/others.

http://www.bmspro.info/fileadmin/bms...0nd_t.data.pdf
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Old 7th July 2009, 02:36 AM   #26
tinitus is offline tinitus  Europe
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Beyma CP755TI can be found affordable around here
Another member just said that it sounds good on Beyma TD385

But in AUS, the natural choise would be Azura AH-550, you probably wont find any better

Might be worth to notice that it seems like some of the big compression drivers are made for higher power, and not aimed at more extended lowend
Not certain about it though

RCF ND650 looks good, but I dont know
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Old 7th July 2009, 02:46 AM   #27
doug20 is offline doug20  United States
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http://www.htguide.com/forum/showthread.php4?t=33682

Augerpro is doing lots of testing to find a great waveguide, 12", 15" driver, etc for a 2-way design. He has measured the TD12Ms recently too!

I have the TD12Ms myself already I have several CD drivers already but Im going to bet the BMS 4550 or B&C DE250 (Geddes uses it down below 1K)

The QSC waveguide that is part of the QSC HPR-152 speaker has shown to measure very well and its about 1/10th the cost of the XT-1086 Not sure about international shipping though.

Augerpro is going to measure the Azura 425hz horn not sure if its similar, he hasnt posted the results yet.

Why does the OP want to crossover below 1000Hz, the TD15M does pretty way past 1K Hz.


other then that just order Geddes kits, his waveguides/DE250 crossover below 1K Hz!!

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Old 7th July 2009, 01:09 PM   #28
fb is offline fb  Australia
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Thanks again everyone...

Tinitus, I had looked at the AH-550, but got put off by the prospect of mounting it to a box/baffle - I'm not big on woodworking skills. Maybe it wouldn't be too hard, and it's certainly not bad value here in Aus. Have you seen anyone put it in a box?


Doug, I'm findbuddha on htguide/avsforum.... my latest plan is the 4550 on the waveguide from the HPR152. QSC won't ship to Aus, so hopefully someone on the forums can buy a pair on my behalf. I'm hoping to do the whole directivity matching thing, which would mean crossing the TD15M <1000hz to the 90 degree waveguide.

I'll be buying the 4550s from USSpeaker, and I've offered to get them sent to Augerpro for testing, but he wants some others as well for comparison.

Gedde's kits are too expensive, especially considering it's not quite a plug and play solution. $400 US for a single 15", no foam!


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Old 7th July 2009, 02:34 PM   #29
doug20 is offline doug20  United States
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Quote:
Originally posted by fb
Thanks again everyone...

Tinitus, I had looked at the AH-550, but got put off by the prospect of mounting it to a box/baffle - I'm not big on woodworking skills. Maybe it wouldn't be too hard, and it's certainly not bad value here in Aus. Have you seen anyone put it in a box?


Doug, I'm findbuddha on htguide/avsforum.... my latest plan is the 4550 on the waveguide from the HPR152. QSC won't ship to Aus, so hopefully someone on the forums can buy a pair on my behalf. I'm hoping to do the whole directivity matching thing, which would mean crossing the TD15M <1000hz to the 90 degree waveguide.

I'll be buying the 4550s from USSpeaker, and I've offered to get them sent to Augerpro for testing, but he wants some others as well for comparison.

Gedde's kits are too expensive, especially considering it's not quite a plug and play solution. $400 US for a single 15", no foam!


Cool!! Im penngray

My plans are identical but with the TD12M, I have people I work with that are Originally from Australia and they do travel there (I think every august). Send me a PM on AVS on your location and I can ask when they are travelling and if they could ship something for me. If not I can certainly do it for fellow DIYer/AVSer!!!! I will piggyback your Crossover though Im not good at that stuff yet, active crossovers make me lazy.

Edit: I just ordered 2 more QSC HPR152 waveguides for you!
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Old 7th July 2009, 06:47 PM   #30
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Quote:
Originally posted by fb
QSC won't ship to Aus, so hopefully someone on the forums can buy a pair on my behalf.
Tried them myself too. Even phoned and no go. I want 4 of the SP106 (round 10")

Be interested to see how you go with yours.
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