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Old 18th October 2012, 08:29 PM   #511
ScottG is offline ScottG  United States
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Elias View Post
I think it is rarely mentioned because people do not know to pay attention to it.

Griesinger may well be ahead of his own time Maybe like after 20 years from now it will taken seriously..

Perhaps I should have had those same people put on headphones and asked for a description from each..


I on the other hand am very much aware of the "in the head" sound, and again - that is NOT the effect I get.


Griesinger is well ahead of his peers in several respects (..and he is right now taken very seriously), but I don't think he is necessarily correct with all of his statements.
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Old 18th October 2012, 08:40 PM   #512
Elias is offline Elias  Finland
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Scott,

Tell us again please why we should listen to that youtube clip ?

Because while listening to it I found out the deepest truth about youtube, the true meaning of it ! It sounds like coming from a tube, literally !


Quote:
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I on the other hand am very much aware of the "in the head" sound, and again - that is NOT the effect I get.
Are you telling you don't get in the head sound if you place a single mono bass speaker 0.5 m behind your head symmetrical to median plane at ear level located in the middle of the room ?


- Elias
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Old 18th October 2012, 08:58 PM   #513
puppet is offline puppet  United States
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Which part? I was always talking about the source being very close, like 2'.
I was posting to Elias' comment about how my room is laid out relative to the sub/woofer placement. I had assumed that a similar position was what you had suggested to Elias. He, Elias, then posted that you were not speaking of such a sub/woofer placement .. as in my rooms layout. In that post he also deduced that the main listening position was in the circle area.

I then posted that "Yes, .. " that was the listening position and that I must have misunderstood your prior suggestion to Elias about sub/woofer placement. (I don't think I did .. or maybe mine is a few inches too far back/forward/left/right/up/down/backward ... don't know :P ... regardless, I'm not about to debate that. I'll leave that to the scientists here.)

Make sense now markus?
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Old 18th October 2012, 09:09 PM   #514
gedlee is offline gedlee  United States
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As far as the Greisinger comments go, I have trouble with the fact that a 100 Hz tone has a ten foot wavelength and we are supposed to somehow believe that a reasonable "gradient" can be achived between the ears? At 20 Hz the wavelength is 50 feet. Come on, the signal at the two ears at these frequencies has to be extremely similar if not identical. The correlation has to be nearly 1.0.

Dave: 6 dB addition of SPL is the exact same as a 3 dB addition to PWL. Multiple subs could be an issue if the structure is not very solid because there can be a lot of structure borne sound due to the heavy subs coupling to the structure. AT LFs sound issolation becomes a seriously complex problem of coupled modes and structure borne sound. In this regard a dipole would fair far worse since its mechanical forces generate far less SPL than a monopole, so structurally they would generate a lot more LF coupling. Maybe this is what makes them sound different!?
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Old 18th October 2012, 09:24 PM   #515
Elias is offline Elias  Finland
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Still humans are able to locate sounds very well below 100 Hz based on ITD.
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Old 18th October 2012, 09:26 PM   #516
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Still humans are able to locate sounds very well below 100 Hz based on ITD.
But not in acoustically small rooms.
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Old 18th October 2012, 09:42 PM   #517
Elias is offline Elias  Finland
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If the signal has modulations and they are reproduced accordingly, then we are more able
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Old 18th October 2012, 09:42 PM   #518
KSTR is offline KSTR  Germany
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It comes down to whether or not we can create a pressure difference beetwen left and right eardrum. Even with mono signals sometimes freq dependant image shifts can occur depending on how imperfect the acoustic symmetry of the setup is. With phase (and mag) differences which can be coded in the source channels there should be enough chances that partly "artificial" localisation of deeper bass notes could be accomplished in small rooms, with some help from modal effects (nulls at ear locations, notably). Also IRCC, there is a recent peer-reviewed paper on the localisation of bass which showed that freq range might need an update to lower ranges than currently established... I just can't find it anymore.

Last edited by KSTR; 18th October 2012 at 09:46 PM.
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Old 18th October 2012, 09:48 PM   #519
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there is a recent peer-reviewed paper on the localisation of bass which showed that freq range might need an update to lower ranges than currently established... I just can't find it anymore.
JAES? Title? Author?
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Old 18th October 2012, 09:53 PM   #520
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If the signal has modulations and they are reproduced accordingly, then we are more able
That's exactly the problem, you just can't do that within an acoustically small room. You can do it with headphones but why the heck are low frequencies still not externalized? Something is wrong in Griesinger's theory.
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