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Old 16th October 2012, 12:49 AM   #431
gedlee is offline gedlee  United States
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Well John, looks like we may have finally got the last word The post seems to have died after we spoke. Either that or its past bedtime in the EU
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Old 16th October 2012, 05:58 AM   #432
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Originally Posted by lolo View Post
wow.. 70cm walls! torture room?


more subjectively, aren't dipoles meant to give an edge on "natural" LF reproduction? less energy storage + less group delay compared to ported subs, and even closed boxes?
Dipoles sound more "natural" over the entire bandwidth...most would agree to this. It is just that in the lower bass region, from what John and Dr. Geddes are supporting from their graphs and explanations, is that monopoles are as good and also more efficient.

Also true that even SL who strongly believes in the naturalness of dipole sound, reverts to sealed monopoles for lower than 40Hz, for the efficiency benefit.

I would be inclined to think that if the mid-high frequencies have dipole radiation, then it is just more logical and natural to have the midbass also have the same radiation pattern to preserve coherency.
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Old 16th October 2012, 07:39 AM   #433
lolo is offline lolo  France
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Quote:
Originally Posted by soundaatma View Post
Dipoles sound more "natural" over the entire bandwidth...most would agree to this. It is just that in the lower bass region, from what John and Dr. Geddes are supporting from their graphs and explanations, is that monopoles are as good and also more efficient.

Also true that even SL who strongly believes in the naturalness of dipole sound, reverts to sealed monopoles for lower than 40Hz, for the efficiency benefit.

I would be inclined to think that if the mid-high frequencies have dipole radiation, then it is just more logical and natural to have the midbass also have the same radiation pattern to preserve coherency.
Yep, it was bedtime!

Actually SL did design a monopole sub to augment the Orions, but.. he never uses them because of poor coupling to the dipoles!! There is also extremely low interest in them on his forum. Oh well..
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Old 16th October 2012, 07:51 AM   #434
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To my ears, dipole bass is difficult to integrate with monopole subwoofers. I've tried it many times, and every time the monopole sounded "different" than the dipoles. Hard to describe, but its a different type of sound.

Dipole subwoofers are as efficient as wood-fired steam engines... that's why we don't see them too often I guess.
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Old 16th October 2012, 07:52 AM   #435
seanny is offline seanny  United States
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I think Earl's kid Nathan sometimes log on Earl's account to post a few jokers.
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Old 16th October 2012, 09:23 AM   #436
Rudolf is online now Rudolf  Germany
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Quote:
Originally Posted by soundaatma View Post
Dipoles sound more "natural" over the entire bandwidth...most would agree to this.
I could agree with that as a subjective statement. But does it explain anything? What is the basic physical principle that makes them sound more "natural"?

I tend to see the better direct/reverberant ratio, which can be achieved with a well made dipole, as the main (and simple) "culprit" - because this allows for less and weaker reflections. But you can control the reflection ratio as well on the walls as in the source.
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Originally Posted by StigErik View Post
To my ears, dipole bass is difficult to integrate with monopole subwoofers. I've tried it many times, and every time the monopole sounded "different" than the dipoles. Hard to describe, but its a different type of sound.
Below 34 Hz (equals 10 m wavelength) even 18" H frames are becoming too small. Down low we probably have to think of dipole subwoofers as separate point sources with inverse polarity placed with some meters distance between them. This is where Earls subwoofer proposal would meet with your approach imho.

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Old 16th October 2012, 09:31 AM   #437
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I'll post the impulse responses.
John, are you still planning on making the impulse responses available?
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Old 16th October 2012, 10:34 AM   #438
Elias is offline Elias  Finland
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My initial thought when starting this thread was to explore bass reproduction with monopoles and dipoles in a small room with rigid walls and without any absorption other than normal living room furnitures. This is living reality for many.

Let's keep it that way. Discussion requiring heavy room treatments do not really belong in this thread.


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Old 16th October 2012, 11:13 AM   #439
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This is living reality for many.
So is stud wall constructions for others. It's understandably that you want best possible reproduction in your room but so do others. And the acoustic properties of their rooms might differ considerably from yours. It's probably more meaningful to first define those properties before deciding any implementation details.

Could you post the impulse responses from your room?
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Old 16th October 2012, 11:23 AM   #440
6.283 is offline 6.283  Germany
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Originally Posted by Rudolf View Post
I tend to see the better direct/reverberant ratio, which can be achieved with a well made dipole, as the main (and simple) "culprit" - because this allows for less and weaker reflections. But you can control the reflection ratio as well on the walls as in the source.
But wasn't exactly that one point Earl was mentioning that there is virtually no directivity in small rooms at LFs ?
Unless I misunderstand what you are saying.
Personally, I though it had at least some effect but maybe not.



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I completely agree. The whole concept of directionality fails when there are dominate modes because then the sound waves can only travel along very precise prescribed directions. Arbitrary directions are not possible so the whole concept of "source directivity" fails.
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