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Old 8th October 2012, 04:16 PM   #251
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Tastes differ. Some prefer to hear forest, or concert hall, in living room. Some prefer to hear living room, with birds or orchestra in it.
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Old 8th October 2012, 05:52 PM   #252
gedlee is offline gedlee  United States
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And some prefer to hear music the way that it was recorded - you know "Hi-Fi"!
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Old 8th October 2012, 05:54 PM   #253
_Wim_ is offline _Wim_  Belgium
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And some prefer to hear music the way that it was recorded - you know "Hi-Fi"!
As a wise man recently said:

"Don't bite, don't bite, don't bite..."
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Old 8th October 2012, 06:08 PM   #254
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And some prefer to hear music the way that it was recorded - you know "Hi-Fi"!
But I want every pie to taste like apple pie because apple pie is my favorite. I also don't need no recipe for making apple pie. I just add ingredients until it "tastes good to me". And if there's just pizza for dinner I simply add some apples on top of it
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Old 8th October 2012, 06:20 PM   #255
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Agreed, as long as the researcher leaves open the possibility that his initial assumption/hypothesis is incorrect - i.e. maybe dipoles are not the best sounding LF source. I, for one, do not believe that they are. I don't believe that anything else is any better either. I believe that it all depends on how the room and subs are setup and that the source type is a distant second in importance.
Well, if you believe the room is the most likely culprit, we need to take it out of the picture or at least reduce the room contributions. Although I don't have have Elias's measuring tools, I have used my ears to compare dipoles vs sealed woofers, in big rooms with huge windows and many doors to approximate wide open listing environments and still favor dipoles. It would be great to know if somebody ever did scientific measurements comparing sealed vs dipole/cardioid in simulated anechoic conditions.
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Old 8th October 2012, 06:45 PM   #256
gedlee is offline gedlee  United States
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Well, if you believe the room is the most likely culprit, we need to take it out of the picture or at least reduce the room contributions.
Except that is the point, we cannot do that, it is dominate and makes all the other discussion moot.

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I have used my ears to compare dipoles vs sealed woofers, ... and still favor dipoles.
And I could just as easily say the opposite. Where does that get us?
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Old 8th October 2012, 06:49 PM   #257
Elias is offline Elias  Finland
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Here's the FFT frequency responses of the same impulse responses as before.

In this metrics they both are bad, and they just suck in a slighty different way.

Compare these FFT curves with the pics from post #212.


Dipole:
Click the image to open in full size.


Monopole:
Click the image to open in full size.


Clearly, comparing only FFT responses to find the better performing solution is a dead end.


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Dipole Bass vs Monopole Bass Stereophonic Sound from a Single Loudspeaker 3 Speaker Linear Stereo Matrix Wavelets
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Old 8th October 2012, 06:51 PM   #258
gedlee is offline gedlee  United States
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As a wise man recently said:

"Don't bite, don't bite, don't bite..."
Yes, but ... In the long run if we just avoid this issue then it's not even worth coming to DIY (or any other site). It's just the "same old, same old". You either fight the laudable fight or go away.
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Old 8th October 2012, 06:56 PM   #259
gedlee is offline gedlee  United States
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Clearly, comparing only FFT responses to find the better performing solution is a dead end.
Yes, they are both bad, and it is often hard to tell the difference in impression between two very bad results (I have statistical data to show this. As two sounds become "very bad" perceptions will have a greater deviation across subjects than "better" ones. "How bad is bad?" is always an issue.) But I do not see how you can draw the conclusion that you are drawing.

Further - that data is obviously bogus since they both have the same level of LF excitation and that is impossible.

Last edited by gedlee; 8th October 2012 at 06:59 PM.
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Old 8th October 2012, 07:03 PM   #260
Elias is offline Elias  Finland
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Originally Posted by soundaatma View Post
It would be great to know if somebody ever did scientific measurements comparing sealed vs dipole/cardioid in simulated anechoic conditions.

You propably mean echoic ?


I do have 3D room impulse response simulator which can generate impulse responses from monopole, dipole and cardiode in an arbitrary room. I made it with Octave, how else It is easy to simulate any source location and orientation.
It has been a long time dream to do exhaustive simulations on these source types in a small room, but unfortunately time has allways found better use. One day, I hope and belive !


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